Toilet training and high anxiety - how schools are changing

[DeedlessIndeed]

Apologies if there is another thread on this, but I read this BBC article at the weekend and it's really stuck with me.

What on earth is happening to a percentage of young children that the schools are having to step in on such a large scale?

In the article it states that 8 out of 27 children starting school in September weren't toilet trained. Some didn't have adequate communication skills such as being able to ask for a drink.

SEN aside, does anyone know what is contributing to this delay in development? What can parents of very young children do to ensure that their child is meeting their developmental milestones?

And also, what resource does this take away from actual teaching in the old fashioned sense. What impact does this have on other children in these classes?

For context, my first baby is due in a couple of weeks so I've no idea on the realities of raising a child to school age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1ddegp8zvo

Also services are so stretched that children with possible SEN are waiting ages - one toddler I know whose 2 older siblings have SEND, and 3 year old not talking, has a wait of at least a year to be seen by NHS speech and language therapist same with ASD, Here its a 4 year wait apparently.

I'm sure there are wider issues as well in terms of parenting but this ^ does not help one little bit. Early intervention is key, best practice all round but is nowhere to be seen.

Hope a new government will look at addressing this.

Bring back Sure Start and Book Start?

Did they help?

I think teens both boys and girls should be taught childcare skills at school - or at least know the fundamental aspects children need to learn to thrive!

It's tragic if they come to nursery without the skills and experience to be able to play out or go for a walk. Something is going badly wrong. I didn't see that in DS's cohort (he is now 14 so a long way from toddler hood at least most days), is it since Covid?

There is a lot of 'noise' to parents currently about the warnings of pushing children to potty train too early to be fair and such emphasis on them letting you know when they're ready. I've just potty trained DS2 (he was 2yrs 9months when we started) and I'd mentioned to at his 2.5yr HV phone appointment that we needed to start toilet training soon, only to be met with shock and warnings that I should not start yet as its too early and it'll cause longer issues, take a lot longer to be reliably trained etc. and not to begin until after 3yrs old.

I kind of ignored this as DS2 is my second son, and I trained DS1 at 2yrs 4months several years ago without much fuss at all. We both work FT, so I had to wait a couple of months until DH and I had some days off work (I took some leave, then DH took a few days plus the weekend) and we trained DS2 in under a week. He was back to nursery several days later and nursery helped support this. It's all been pretty easy with the help of a sticker chart. However, if DS2 had been my first child, I doubt I'd have started toilet training at all yet (DS2 now just turned 3) as most advice you read seems to point to waiting until they're obviously ready.

I suspect a lot of parents are there waiting and looking for signs that their toddler is 'ready' .... but in reality, the signs aren't too obvious and I believe we as their parents probably have to give them a gentle push in the right direction. I certainly hear a lot of "Oh, Josh isn't interested in the potty at all yet".... well yeah, I doubt they would show any real interest in the potty if the adults haven't given subtle/gentle pushes or incentives that the potty is now there for the child to use!

Having said that, even the use of incentives for potty training is now considered totally inappropriate in some circles (I daren't tell DS2 mum friends that I used shock chocolate buttons to incentivize DS1 to toilet train 6 years ago!)

So, when I see these headlines, I sometimes wonder if I am considered one of these parents that have been accused of being "lazy" further up the thread? My eldest has always had issues with toilet training and until recently (now a primary school pupil) they were having regular accidents. I didn't talk about this to others because DC was becoming increasingly embarrassed and it was a private thing for her.

In reality what was actually happening was we were fighting our way through a shit healthcare system trying to find out why she was struggling so much. Like others have said, we've had useless advice from health visitors - that's when when they would actually respond to our requests for support, we've had judgemental nursery nurses/teaching staff who are clearly disgusted at having to assist her, GPs who just kept recommending the same things we'd already tried and eventually, after 4 years( we moved areas and went to back of waiting list!) saw a consultant who helped. In that 4 years though I have never got through to the Eric charity helpline, despite ringing many times. They were so overworked as they seemed to be filling a gaping hole in the NHS provision.

I'd love to know how many of these children in the article should actually be receiving medical treatment for things like food intolerances, kidney issues, stool withholding, bladder problems etc etc

So @Hateliars34 you are far from alone with that experience.

To be honest, if anyone had even suggested to me that child wasn't fully potty trained because I was a working middle class mother I'd probably have unleashed the most brutal dressing down they'd have ever had.

I think there's a massive rise in shit parenting. We hardly saw a health visitor at all, both of us worked and we still managed to figure out how to potty train, ensure our children can use a knife and fork etc.

It's never been easier to find information about what a developing toddler needs using the internet. There's loads of reliable online resources from the NHS, local councils and EYFS providers. If you can use Insta/TikTok then you're perfectly capable of taking the same time to understand what your child needs, you just can't be arsed.

It is possible for there to be an epidemic of shit parenting at the same time as children with SEN are struggling; the shit parenting makes life harder for everyone.

@shockeditellyou I agree with you that there can be multiple factors, however poor identification of SEN doesn't help untangle the knot. Some professionals imply a child's needs are due to poor parenting when they are due to SEN. There is a relentless drive to not recognise needs due to funding issues.

TBF pretty much all the parents I know, whatever their station in life in terms of job/money/accommodation have dome a sterling job as parents including those with SEND kids who go the extra mile. There's only one family where I have felt the parent hasn't especially gone out of their way to parent and their child looks to have undiagnosed SEN. But I don't know many with under 5's these days so perhaps things have changed for the worse.

@Alltheyearround

Yes Sure Start helped -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68763942

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/sure-start-centres-early-years-support-families

Early intervention helps a lot.

Most of the parents who come on here with young children don't need nudging or being told what to do. Those that don't need it which is what HV and Sure Start provided.

Some nurseries and CM also provide this btw

I’m glad OP posted as I read this article and found it fascinating. Mine were born pre-Covid (by a few years) and immediately before Covid, so the second is what you’d call a Covid baby in many ways.

DC2 only went to baby groups intermittently but otherwise had a pretty similar babyhood to DC1. But he is far more school-ready now (starting in September) than DC1 (late summer born) was.

I think tech has got something to do with it, along with the relentless pressure on parents. And I think there’s something in a comment above about how it’s easier than ever to be a shit parent, even though there is more information out there than ever about how to be a good one.

I’d also say a lot of people parent in isolation without a “village” of extended family and friends to support each other - we’re in this position as we’re some distance from family and have struggled to make friends locally, having moved areas since DC1 was born (hoped to create new networks when on maternity leave with DC2 but this didn’t happen). But I do think this has an impact and can both increase anxiety and ignorance of what normal looks like.

Surely 'having anxiety' about something, or generally, and 'being worried' about something, or being generally worried are the exact same thing? Why are people so scared of the word anxiety?

I agree. They should start nearer to 7 like in Finland, Poland etc

Interesting thread .I was a really involved parent helper p1 onwards 30 plus yrs ago and even then was surprised at the different abilities in the children. Kids able to read and write and others not knowing their colours, the very very odd " accident " happened but there was a real expectation that children would be toilet trained before starting nursery let alone school.
Recently I was shocked when a child asked and was given a nappy to put on and poo into .
It literally was when a much older relative really called this out that the parents suddenly were able to toilet train their child .
I do think there is a lack of effort around this for some parents .
I know people are busy but weren't we all , I worked full time took the week off and went for it .
I also feel there is to much passive parenting and screen time for toddlers .I also now notice if a parent is speaking to their child rather than on their phone will pushing a pram etc .

Yes, but it also made parents pull their finger out and do it! (Where no SEN obviously).

I can remember been on a course 5 years ago .. a report had come out about this kind of thing .
I asked if it was media hype , she was talking about how many children couldn’t even hold a book, had no idea of animal names never mind there babies were foals etc ..

I also remember been at a sure start centre a lady came to group - very isolated - her child thought he was a dog as he only played with the dog … she had a surestart worker helping her … people really under estimate what sure start did .

i had a surestart worker who helped as my Ds had severe separation issues - through circumstances.. they ran cooking , music. , groups , basic life skills some don’t possess .

like pp said people who come to MN are the general demographics that are struggling .

There is such a push for DC to be in nursery at a young age and for parents to work - free hours to enable parents to earn. But nurseries don't make the time for TT or development of language and social skills. So when DC who have been in nursery and pre-school don't have the required skills, parents are blamed.

I may be wrong. How many of DC lacking skills have a background of stay at home parent? Is the issue really nursery's/preschool?

I would like to know because smart phone usage and reluctance to stay home for a couple of days whilst TT seems to be blamed here and that only really applies to stay at home parents.

It will be different for every situation. Personally I think standards have slipped in nurseries since COVID. A lack of experienced staff and poor morale plus more meddling with the curriculum meant there was a big decline in my dcs nursery in a few years but that is just my experience. A child with a engaged parent who reads and plays I think is probably going to be better off than in full time nursery. Although part time nursery definitely provides valuable social time. A child with poor parenting at home is much better off in nursery. Given the dramatic decline in skills and behaviour we've seen since COVID closures sadly it shows that there are many parents out there who simply Cba with the basics.

I may be wrong. How many of DC lacking skills have a background of stay at home parent? Is the issue really nursery's/preschool?

There was a thread on her the other day pointing out mothers with ND children are much more likely to end up as SAHM.

We decided older two kids would never cope with childcare options - though managed 2.5 hours of preschool - and needed a lot of support during school years but it's only now late teen and adulthood we have diagnosis or are on waiting list and people have stopped insisting things are normal.

So not sure you can categorise or work out so simply. I suspect it's many thing that may have slowly come together and may have been present and mitigated for a time with sure start - now that support gone and all services are under pressure and parents are struggling more as well the impacts have piled up into a crisis.

There was a real push a few years back with the Every Child a Talker initiative.

DS was a late talker, and not due to lack of effort from either of us. SLT came to nursery and did sessions with him, I still have the form in his red book about what we did at home - songs, rhymes, books etc Incidentally all these things build early literacy skills (hearing sounds in words and rhymes - phonological awareness). Interestingly when DS was diagnosed age 8 with dyslexia the Ed Psych said he had good phonological skills. All those nights of singing not in vain!

It all takes time and lots and lots of repetition. For me it was a labour of love to share these things (and DS was no stranger to some screen time when I became too ill) but I can see why some parents would find them 'another thing on the never ending to do list'.

Lack of screens in the past meant parents and nurseries had to find things to do like play doh and stickle bricks, all the time on a screen is time they are missing building fine and gross motor skills, language/speech, and other toddler appropriate developmental practice.

@DeedlessIndeed i am pretty sure it is this one, just had a good old dig around to find it https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/12/talking-cure?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR32Q9JmMlI7ZHiDyRIQt0w8DbdrWgQ-LwHoGO9X1ZXcc9k2o4CBmopNOsQ_aem_AUNhrSWD27EJxIp1BfvQoIwYrP781VVp_PsUtnZbCFvbbi5yV8eDeOPZJlnRRAmxqNlcNvferdR7MfsRyGF1RHfa

@ZazieBeth wow that’s such a sad story but thank goodness some adults noticed and did something. No doubt changed his life for the better.

I think reading to children is actually the exception rather than the rule. Probably not on MN where there are a lot of engaged parents. I've worked with children a lot and some children are not familiar with books at all on starting school.

I've posted about this before, probably many times actually.

My kid does have special needs so I know that complicates things but we started potty training at 18 months, and he's 5 now. Granted he's better, but I have sought A LOT of advice and help from health visitors, GPs, psychiatrists, and all have referred me to ERIC the bowel and bladder charity.

Every so often they sign post me for webinars but I have also called for some more bespoke advice and almost all the advice I've had contradicts itself.

First you've got the "it's a myth that kids need to show signs of readiness to toilet train" to the "but if your kid isn't showing signs of readiness and you try and force it before they're ready it can be traumatic and cause set backs", then you've got "keeping kids in pull ups can be confusing because they're so much like nappies, go cold turkey and get rid" to "some kids will withhold if you go cold turkey and that can cause a lot of health issues" to "there's evidence to show early potty training can cause bladder issues" to "don't miss your window of opportunity, this can be early, and you might want to consider elimination communication", along with a plethora of other contradictions more specific to SEN kids, like "always change them in the bathroom so they know that a bathroom is where pee and poo goes" to "if your kid has special needs they might have sensory issues that make the bathroom really traumatic so avoid traumatic situations if you want them to toilet train" and so on.

I don't know why lots of kids aren't potty trained before they start school, but I think the lack of unified advice and the numerous contradictions that come from within the same organisations, not even competing or differing organisations, has made it an absolute minefield for many parents.

I get what your saying but nursery should be able to handle a few accidents, I think pull ups etc make it harder. My advice has always been once they're in pants never go back.

Similar experiences - we asked to see urology when DS was 5 - GP said come back when he is 7 we don't refer before then.

He's still under paeds urology now age 14! Treatment and consistent advice for bladder and bowel is challenging to get and slow to progress. We were with continence nurses for a year or two before we actually got to see a consultant when he was 8. All that time incontinent and wetting/dashing to loo 20 times a day and wet beds almost nightly. It was crazy and really impacted his education.

I would say constantly narrate the world around you with young children from a communication point of view. For example when they are a toddler age, if you are getting something out of the cupboard tell them what you are doing and why. Babies also look at their parents faces a lot so talking to them will help their speech development.

I have to say as well I have a nearly 7 year old not toilet trained and the community paeds team have rejected the GP referral 3 times to assess him and won’t refer to OT so there’s that issue too