Toilet training and high anxiety - how schools are changing

[DeedlessIndeed]

Apologies if there is another thread on this, but I read this BBC article at the weekend and it's really stuck with me.

What on earth is happening to a percentage of young children that the schools are having to step in on such a large scale?

In the article it states that 8 out of 27 children starting school in September weren't toilet trained. Some didn't have adequate communication skills such as being able to ask for a drink.

SEN aside, does anyone know what is contributing to this delay in development? What can parents of very young children do to ensure that their child is meeting their developmental milestones?

And also, what resource does this take away from actual teaching in the old fashioned sense. What impact does this have on other children in these classes?

For context, my first baby is due in a couple of weeks so I've no idea on the realities of raising a child to school age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1ddegp8zvo

A retired nurse friend told me that cloth nappies were much better for toilet training because the wet bum gave the child a clear signal.

Ha! I had a huge paragraph explaining that and I deleted it becaue I'd wittered on too much anyway!

I used cloth for my 2nd and 3rd babies for environmental reasons. (or possibly I was a glutton for punishment)

They both toilet trained much sooner than my 1st as they were instantly aware of feeling wet. However, I acknowledge the plural of anecdote is not data.

You had a HV.

I saw mine twice within the first month my DD was born. Then never again.

I agree, this seems highly unlikely. No primary is entirely screen-based, and never has been. My son is in Reception and apparently the first thing they do every day is write a sentence.

Regarding nappies, there is obviously a problem there but bear in mind many, many children would have been excluded from mainstream education/nursery/playgroups because of undiagnosed SEN. There were two children still in nappies when my son started Reception last year, and both would never have been in mainstream school in the 80s. They both have TAs and are in part-time.

Unless their parents simply don't speak to them??

This.

Watch some parents pushing buggies. They’re on their phones. The kids are plugged into tablets. You can even get a tablet holder to clamp on to the buggy.

I’ve taught children who don’t even know how to take turns in board games but they have food, clothing and a home to live in. Parental lack of interest is a big factor. And before you round on me to say ‘but full time work…’ that’s not the cause. People get lazy about things they perceive to be difficult when there are other distractions.

Toilet training is possibly due to school start being earlier. When I was little it was far more common to start at Xmas if you're a summer born. That extra few months can be HUGE for emotional and physical development at that age.

My older summer born older two likely have some ND as well - you go from wait for signs to why aren't the reliable very quickly. First nursery/preschool made it harder as they seemed to prefer nappies and next one claimed as it was attached to school they didn't have to deal with nappies - so at just 3 there seemed unrealistic expectation of reliability - and a lot of tutting at me.

My DMum said looking back me and sibling were late more routine trained than picking up body feedback - so went to pot on holidays when routines changed - so starting earlier age with terry nappies and starting school later help us to get it more so had fewer issues when at school.

My youngest just took nappy off about 2 and half and wanted to try got lots of oh you've finally got it right - but she always goes to bed when tried - eats/drinks when her body feels her too - they other two lack that more to point with DS is a real concern.

I was surprised to encounter at Sure Start centers when mine were young mother's who were unaware how kids developed language - ie didn't see point of engaging of they weren't yet talking - Sure Start centres were good at dealing with those issue - funding cuts means most of those are gone.

It’s been aaaaages since my kids were in nappies but I always thought the same about the “they won’t feel they have a wet bum with our nappies” advertising - I remember thinking “but I want them to know they’ve had a wee!

And yes HVs are mostly a thing of the past. I think it's even less now than when I had my son in 2019. We had a couple of home visits when he was newborn, then a development check at the centre age 1ish. Then another check via video call during Covid - I guess he was about 2.5? Nothing since.

Our nursery supported us in toilet training, although I did take a week off (and it took that long).

This is where Sure Start helped.

It wasn't just aimed at the socio-economically disadvantaged.

One of my SILs used to run one and had the books for parents and staff at home. I remember reading them. I had been taught most of what was in the books already by my SILs as due to the age gaps between myself and my older siblings I was around when they had their babies.

I also spoke to a now deceased friend was a primary school teacher and had taught in different schools. She pointed out that it wasn't just some people who were socio-economically disadvantaged didn't know what to do around babies and small children as both herself and one of her sisters use to have to tell some their well-educated and well off distance family members what to do.

What used to be the "village" helping to raise a child seems like it's a safety net that has been removed in a lot of cases too.

If you don't have friends with children, don't have time or can't attend parent-toddler groups, don't have family living nearby or your family don't know themselves what to do then I guess some people don't know their own blind spots.

Unless you do actively look for guidance on what to do, you might not know instinctively. It sounds like Sure Start centres mitigated this in the past I guess.

It's a balance perhaps between not spoon-feeding people, but also making sure parents are aware of milestones and how best to support their child's development.

I had my son late 2019. We had one visit from a midwife in the first week and a phone call from HV at some point. I sometimes wonder that we could have murdered him and no one would even question it.

(Obviously we didn't)

Ah cross-posted @Reugny !

Agree that anyone can be unaware of what to do. Didn't realise Sure start were for everyone, they sound fantastic.

My mum teaches in a private school (not in the UK) and does assessments for intake. She says in her most recent one she's had 2 parents who've said they don't read to their children. She was absolutely gobsmacked, it seems some parents don't even realise how important a basic thing like reading stories is to child development.

Our nursery supported us in toilet training, although I did take a week off (and it took that long).

Our CM supported us with toilet training. I remember having a discussion about my DP about when we needed to tackle it and the next thing our CM was saying our DD who was 2 was interested in being toilet trained.

A later conversation with our CM revealed that peer pressure often encourages children to start toilet training. One of my friends' whose younger child who went to nursery and was slightly older helped prove that as a group of the children were all toilet trained at the same time as they were in the same room. (Some of them were 2 while others were 3.) The couple who weren't ready refused to wear nappies and pull ups, and insisted in being trained as well.

Anyway when my DD started going to nursery PT at 3 they were surprised she was day toilet trained. They were also surprised she could count to 20, knew colours etc. Both myself, my DP and the CM just taught her stuff when we were out walking around. She also was lucky to have a couple of older kids to play with regularly at the CM's.

The information is there if you look for it, but a lot of the mechanisms for getting the information to people aren't there any more.

You mention every antenatal appointment mentioning breastfeeding. Bet they haven't mentioned the risks of it though . There is no equivalent to these appointments once the baby is here. I saw my HV once at 4 and then 6 weeks and then never again. My area had closed children's centres and HV no longer offered weighing clinics or developmental checks. In the past there were regular check ins with HVs, drop in clinics and children's centres where it was easy to have an informal chat with someone experienced in child development.

I knew where to find information about stages of development, pestered HVs for checks after our rocky start and got a lot of support from an excellent nursery, plus toddler groups with more experienced parents present. But a lot of people aren't getting evidence-based information, are just watching Tik Tok (where all sorts of incorrect information is presented) and probably don't even realise the downsides to smartphone or tablet use for children.

Sorry - but being in childcare is not a reason for delayed potty training. IME Nurseries and Playgroups are exceptionally supportive and, in some cases, even guide the parents through the process.

Please can we stop the narrative of everything is the fault of working mothers.

I've only got one and had no example to copy however, I didn't take mine to the toilet that often or at all other than bed time. I encouraged her to know how it felt. She basically potty trained herself and will say she needs the toilet just as well as she can ask for a snack / drink. She's four now so she we born during lockdown.

@RidingMyBike the baby and toddler groups in my area are run by Churches, mainly the CofE, with the help from volunteers. Before Covid due to where I live I could go to a baby and toddler group every working weekday.

After the lockdowns the number of volunteers decreased plus the council cut the funding they gave to them so now most of the ones that are still running are only for people who are socio-economically disadvantage and live in particular social housing. This means both myself and one much younger mother I use to talk to wouldn't have been able to go to the one we attended regularly. The volunteers were very discrete in giving people information.

What a disservice to your NT child

Poor communication and not toilet trained when starting school

It's easy to think it's just a race to the bottom for a lot of parents

A lot of it is can’t-be-arsed parenting. I don’t see the point in dressing it up as something other than that.

You are clearly lucky that your DD decided to copy you. Or who did you think was doing the modelling?

@Reugny I know she was imitating me yes. I presume it's because she had seen me use the toilet it made it easier.

Bullshit,.

There is another thread on this and I will put the same comment here. It's an epidemic of shit parenting. There is no pressure or shame anymore. Screens have made not parenting extremely easy. The 'be kind' culture means that everything is focused on parental mental health, not what's best for children. Austerity is a lot to blame because families that would have had early years engagement no longer have it unless they meet threshold for SS intervention and we all know how high that is. Lack of personal responsibility. All teachers know this. They just have to pretend to wide eyed gaze and ponder the whys because you can't even call and spade a spade anymore without offending.

I expect ratios in childcare are a contributing factor. When I first started in early years we had 3 children per adult now it's 4 children per adult. With inflation and the cost of living working in childcare is appallingly paid I've seen amazing childminders stop work to get a job in Tesco for more money.

Toilet training was a joint effort when I started but a large part fell on childcare now the attitude is it's the parents job and childcare support. There was help so much earlier for children with additional needs now the climate is deny the SEN until it's so disruptive to the care of other children it can't be ignored anymore.

Even toddler groups are different now. Some are similar certainly but there has been a rise in 45 minutes groups with a specific focus like music or sensory not the 2 hour free play in a village hall for 50p they used to be. Children learn valuable skills in those groups I do think that is being lost.

Yes there is a big chunk of lazy parenting too but it can't be the whole reason.