Toilet training and high anxiety - how schools are changing

[DeedlessIndeed]

Apologies if there is another thread on this, but I read this BBC article at the weekend and it's really stuck with me.

What on earth is happening to a percentage of young children that the schools are having to step in on such a large scale?

In the article it states that 8 out of 27 children starting school in September weren't toilet trained. Some didn't have adequate communication skills such as being able to ask for a drink.

SEN aside, does anyone know what is contributing to this delay in development? What can parents of very young children do to ensure that their child is meeting their developmental milestones?

And also, what resource does this take away from actual teaching in the old fashioned sense. What impact does this have on other children in these classes?

For context, my first baby is due in a couple of weeks so I've no idea on the realities of raising a child to school age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1ddegp8zvo

@Lindy2 - might have missed it, but there really hasn't really been much about closing the attainment gap or early years issues outside of childcare provision in this election campaign so far.

It doesn't seem such a hot topic, which is crazy given that I saw the other day that child poverty is at 24% in Scotland.

I understand that.

In the case of that particular playgroup, there's simply no way that they could have run with any other rules - they couldn't have afforded the staffing. It wasn't set up as an educational establishment and took place on the local YMCA premises. (It no longer exists - the YMCA has long since been demolished.)

Agreed. There is significant evidence that widespread use of smartphones by young children is the reason for such a huge increase in mental health issues and anxiety in young people. No child needs a smartphone putting in their hand. They need caring adult interaction, free play and to be read books.

Also did the "pick the week" with eldest DS. He was not quite there when we tried at just 2, so went back and did potty again during my school holidays as I was a teacher. He'd got it in a week, mostly. Barring the odd accident he was done and dry. DD was done earlier but she always has been super independent and wanted big girl pants ASAP 🙄

The lack of a support network and the fact most mums have to work is I am sure at the centre of this. Little kids don't get as much time one to one with an adult (including nursery staff and grandparents) and when they do the parents are often tired and trying to do a million other things too. Add in technology distraction and it's a toxic mix.

I don't know about the communication issues, but we certainly found toilet training as working parents a bit of a nightmare. You take a week off work, then by the end of that week DC hasn't 'got it'. Nursery say still too many accidents so can they please go back to nappies and try again in a month.

That's fine, but you only get a set amount of leave in a year, so the temptation is to leave it longer than a month in the hope that they get it second time round and you haven't used another week's leave without making progress.

Toilet training is possibly due to school start being earlier. When I was little it was far more common to start at Xmas if you're a summer born. That extra few months can be HUGE for emotional and physical development at that age.

Anxiety is possibly a COVID influence but also reflects the wider discourse. My DD was a bit nervous about a school event a few weeks ago. Other parents saying "oh yes my ds has anxiety too" I had to step in say, no, she hasn't got anxiety she is just a bit worried about it. And the issue there is not just semantics but people then telling the children "you have anxiety" which becomes a mould to fit and a self fulfilling prophecy.

Maybe avoid passing judgement before you've potty-trained a child. Bladder development does seem to be taking longer than it used to.

I was potty trained after 1 week of not wearing nappies shortly before turning 2, and assumed my child would be the same.

We started trying at just over 2, and it just wasn't happening. She was having 10 accidents a day for months. I kept persevering whilst hating life as we were constantly washing dirty clothes. At 3 she went down to 3-5 accidents a day. I am very stubborn so I didn't return to nappies except for holidays or long journeys. It was only at 3 years and 7 months that she stopped having daily accidents and only had them occasionally.

She was at nursery from 13 months and a very bright child. Her preschool had a no nappy policy and the vast majority of kids there were having regular accidents. One of my daughter's friends still had accidents when they started reception, and again this is a very intelligent child. Both above average on language skills, reading, writing despite being July babies.

Mine still isn't fully potty trained during the night and regularly wets the bed at night.

With my second child I plan to wait until at least 3 and for signs of readiness rather than washing millions of dirty pants and trousers, having the sofa ruined by pee and wasting so much time washing dirty clothes.

I was on a bus last week and there was a granny with a kid in a bus pushchair doing exactly this. I only noticed because it was so unusual to see these days.

@Hateliars34 - apologies if I came across as judgemental. I can see my wording isn't great and I am the first to admit I have no idea what I'd do in this situation.

Being "passive" isn't the right word. I think I'm trying to ask if a change to a child-led parenting approach from previously a parent-led approach plays a part in the changes seen in schools and development levels.

I am wording it horribly and I mean no disrespect, parenting nowadays seems like an impossible task. Clearly from your post there are many more factors at play including biological etc that I am not even aware of.

I appreciate your input and response. As a first time mum, I feel there are so many factors to consider many of them I am completely ignorant of! The aim of this was mainly to discuss and understand more, and definitely not to judge.

Potty training can be very hard work. It took a week to potty train my DD, but it took the entire 6 weeks of the summer holidays to potty train DS.

In those weeks, we barely left the house apart from to go to local places like the park. We stayed in the house and garden and just did potty training. Luckily I didn't have to work as I worked term time back then. It drove me utterly round the bend, and I was soooo glad to go back to work at the end of those 6 weeks and have some normality!

I guess some parents really don't have the time, energy or whatever to do that for whatever reason - whether it's because they have to work, or have other stuff going on in their life.

I think part of it is that those expected benchmarks aren't being communicated. I think another part is the existence of smart phones - when we didn't have a world of distraction at our fingertips, we did much more interactions with our tiny children than I see now - there wasn't an alternative!

I also think society is - I will word this badly and I don't blame individuals for a societal change - lazier, or more entitled, or less proactive. There's an expectation that school or nursery or a health visitor or a doctor or, well, somebody else will do some of the basics that earlier generations took for granted as part of parenting.

It's certainly not too late when a child is approaching school age. There's so much that can be done to turn things around and help children catch up, even though early years are very important.

As for toilet training - one MASSIVE reason it happened earlier in previous generations - nappies.

Cloth nappies meant endless bloody washing. Disposables weren';t as reliable as they are now and were a big expense. The sooner you got a child out of nappies, the less work and money it cost you.

I've been a teacher for 11 years and this was an issue before COVID which has only worsened. The number of children not toilet trained would goes up every year. The poor staff are under pressure anyway and now spend huge amounts of time toilet training and teaching other basic skills (not including SEN children of course).
Parents on their phones is a huge issue. So many of them just don't realise they're doing it or how long they're doing for. But I really try not to judge as a pp has mentioned parents on their phones while pushing a buggy. This is me. When in a buggy walking to the park, my 2 are content for 10 minutes and I'm on my phone paying the nursery bill, sorting a drs appointment, replying to a playdate etc. I see people judging me but I don't care - I'm hugely engaged with me kids and do my absolute best but I work as well and finding any time to sort stuff out is so hard. Judging someone on something like that is ridiculous.
And regarding language, it's right that people think educational games or TV will suffice.
I play the frozen soundtrack in my car for my 2yo all the time. Hundreds of times! She used to join in singing a bit but not loads. One day I sang along to every song. The next day she sang along to every song with all the correct words! They need behaviour modelled all the time.
Such a complex issue.

My son had just turned 4 when he started school. We send kids to school very young in this country. I think we're looking at it the wrong way around.

Reception is a nursery class. I think we expect a huge amount from our little children sending them to school so young.

I think it’s really hard if you don’t know what ‘normal’ looks like for your child’s age.

I benefited hugely from having friends with similar age children, we shared tips and when one of us found our child could do something, the rest of us were encouraged to give it a go. It wasn’t just potty training, also things like sitting still for a longer story, or learning to ride a balance bike, or putting their own jumper on. Just spending time together, helping each others children, seeing the differences and getting ideas on approaches was so valuable.

It was a real luxury - I had the ability and opportunity to go to baby groups to make friends because I had a long maternity leave. I would have been a very different mother (more anxious, less inclined to try new things and see what my DC could do) if I hadn’t had that. I think a lot of people no longer get that sort of opportunity - or don’t feel able to take it up.

Toilet training is happening later for a combination of reasons, once you have your child and look into it, the relevant researchers are aware of the situation, as are nurseries etc.
But there's not a simple solution really.
The following examples/reasons have been mentioned to me by nursery workers or health visitor or are on the NHS website or from the ERIC guidance, or anecdotes from friends further along the toilet training process than me:
Modern nappies are far more absorbent so children don't feel wet and uncomfortable, even in a full of pee overnight nappy; so the desire from the child for potty training is less common. They don't feel uncomfortable so they don't want to stop playing to try and go to the toilet.
Parents are more keen to try child led approaches than parent led approaches to various areas of parenting. So more likely to wait for their child to show signs of readiness for potty training rather than just deciding to start at a random time.
Less parents are consistently at home with their child to be able to notice their cues and guide them towards potty training from a younger age, compared to previous generations where the mother was almost always at home.
The idea that we shouldn't let having children stop us from going out and about and doing what we want during the day etc, but that means not necessarily being right next to a toilet when a child needs it so potentially more accidents and upset when attempting potty training so it takes a longer time to acheive.
More desire for parents to have privacy and personal time, so less likely to allow child to follow them to the bathroom and watch them using the toilet which apparently is something that will give children an interest in sitting on the toilet.
The techniques used by parents/previous generations might not be transferable to current times, so less support and guidance available to manage the potty training experience, eg, supposedly my grandmother did elimination communication with her children and had them out of nappies by a year, as did my husbands brother (who has a live in nanny), his mother and grandmother.
Generally advice for NHS is not to 'force' things with your child to avoid negative associations and avoidance, particularly with eating & potty training.
Inconsistency between home and nursery means it takes longer as well usually

We are only just starting with my child who is over 2, she's shown a little interest but often doesn't want to try going to the toilet. She actually can't communicate to us yet when she does want to go or has been, we just encourage her to try and go on the toilet regularly and see what happens. We are planning to have another child next year though so are hoping to have her toilet trained by then.

Just to underscore your point about interaction needed to learn language skills, I remember a little boy who lived locally to my workplace about 30 years ago.

It was a pizza delivery place on the edge of an estate. I worked there as a student during weekends and holidays. Lots of kids running about the streets locally.

One was about three years old. He was always on his own. One day he started running into the glass door of the pizza place head first.

He just charged at the door and let out out a yell. We rushed out to open the door to stop him hitting his head again. And he just ran back and forth.

We were worried about him as he was too young to be out by himself. It was also really cold outside (pizza place was very warm due to oven).

We worked out he was probably hungry and offered him some thing to eat. He was very shy.

The manager lived round the corner from the shop and did some discreet asking round about the kid. The manager’s sister lived close by too and between them they managed to trace him.

Turned out his parents were both heroin addicts and just didn’t look after him. At that point the manager and his sister went to social services. The sister ended up fostering him long-term.

Whilst this was taking shape the little boy would come into the pizza place quite regularly and we’d give him something to eat and he sat in the little seats by the window out of the cold.

He’d run off if we tried to talk to him too much though. And then he went to live with the manager’s sister.

After a few months the manager and I were chatting when it was quiet and he said that the difference in the kid in just a few months was unbelievable.

The manager said he thought it wasn’t just that his sister looked after the little boy, but that she spoke to him. And that the interaction was just making him unrecognisable from before.

He could ask for food if he wanted it now, whereas at first he’d just yell if he was hungry. And now if he asked for a biscuit or some juice or whatever he’d say please and thank you. And that he liked animals, especially dogs and could talk about them a lot with the manager and his family.

Obviously the fact he was fed/warm/clothed/cared for made huge difference. But it was also people taking an interest in talking to him.

People who have ‘found’ MN are generally parents who are keen to do the best for their children.
There are a significant number of parents who literally do not give a shit about their children, stick them in front of a screen and expect everyone else to sort them out.

Then people say quite understandably we must do all we can for these children, so they grow up and have children thinking it’s the states problem to sort them out.
Not sure what the answer is.

Disposable nappies make it all too easy not to bother. Hardly surprising that when everybody used terry nappies and had to wash them - especially without an automatic washing machine or a dryer - there was much more impetus to get them trained.

Also nowadays, rather more mothers are working, and are unable to concentrate for say a week* potty training. Nurseries can only do so much.

*a week each was all it took for both of mine, at just over 2. But I was home with them all day.

RELATIVE poverty, in other words, 25% of the population are in the bottom 25%. Meaningless

That’s a really sad article.

I don’t think it’s as simple as all the parents are lazy and stupid. Is this an area of high deprivation? What Tory cuts have been made? What does children’s services etc look like? how many Sure Start centres were closed in the last few years? All this has an impact - even for non-lazy non-stupid parents.

Incidentally I was massively shamed and judged at my DC’s last school when DS entered reception. They’d taught my DD, who was a model pupil but DS kept having poo accidents. They referred me to a NHS team that could help, but they really didn’t. He was toilet trained at age 2 and only did this occasionally and only in school. They made a real fuss of how unpleasant it was for them as he did such big messy poos, and It was only after harassing my GP to find a medical answer, because I just knew it was medical, he was examined and diagnosed with a bowel condition. Which has now been treated and is well managed

We actually moved house and they went to a new school. The soiling stopped. DS is now 7 and tells me how he used to be scared to say he’d poo’ed himself because he’d get shouted at so he let it build up and up!

I think our case is a rare one though

That’s not the definition of relative poverty and it’s certainly not meaningless

We went on holiday both times we needed to potty train, we hired a villa each time and made them go nappyless. It was ideal! I worked as well and would have struggled to do it any other time

@ItsNotAShopItsAStore that is heart breaking to hear that your son was so scared to tell his teachers - there is no benefit to shaming a child. Glad to hear he's in a better place now.

I agree that with the number of children being affected this is not a small handful of irresponsible parents. There is a wider systemic issue (or multiple) that impacts an increasingly large proportion of families.

Lack of time, parents working etc etc are just excuses. Parents have no less time than they did 15, 20 or more years ago. I worked full time. I took a week off to potty train. We didn’t have the phones and the tablets. When we went out, we counted steps as we climbed, we named the coloured cars, we took colouring pencils and books and uno to restaurants, we communicated with the children all of the time. Now, including my grand children, are given a tablet to play with in the car, at the shops, at restaurants etc. we were not perfect but we did communicate with the children.

Definitely. I know it sounds simplistic but the cutting of Sure Start and child community services have had a huge detrimental impact. There’s been so many Tory bugs that affect vulnerable children while MPs bung their mates multi-million pound contracts and then they delight in us all shaming and blaming one another!

Good luck with baby 😊