Piers Morgan interview with real Baby Reindeer Martha

[Luxell934]

I am strangely looking forward to hearing her side….shame it’s with Piers Morgan though 🙈

https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/tv/baby-reindeer-real-martha-piers-morgan-fiona-harvey-richard-gadd-112360-20240508

No one can name him without evidence unless they have no fear of slander/libel.
Police need to be involved.
Historic sex crime.
As it allegedly took place at a party with drugs involved, it's going to be he said, he said.
Wouldn't put myself through it nor would I expect Gadd to.
"Open secret" doesn't mean all in the industry do know nor is it undeniable proof, it means simply that Gadd has spoken with friends/alerted people/possibly referred to him more overtly live, so those "in the know" have heard the gossip.
Take the Russell Brand allegations as an example (and he's far more well-known than the writer/director/producer, whose name has come up. Unless it's a fourth one but I don't see any tangible links to him.) Brand: KR/SP refused to name him. He had legal to quickly shut down any whiff of alleged impropriety. Only Daniel Sloss ever named him. So you need someone with no figs to give or money to defend any lawsuit.

He didn't try and disguise her enough by following too closely what happened.

I think it’s more about her appearance, qualifications, background, where she’s from etc that people are meaning when they say disguise her. He literally didn’t change anything about her personally. Obviously I don’t know what events were true, embellished or completely made up like her prison sentence.

"In real life Harvey was given a police warning for her conduct involving Gadd but has never been to prison or convicted for stalking.
In 2017, Gadd complained to police that he was being stalked by Harvey, which led to a First Instance Harassment Warning being issued against her."
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/baby-reindeers-real-life-martha-32762707

Right so that part was embellished from a warning in real life to a prison sentence in the show.

One lie uncovered makes you query everything else.

It does, I’m not sure what to believe now.
I don’t think it should have been said to be a true story if how it ended wasn’t how it ended in the ‘true’ story.

I think she definitely stalked him, they met at the bar, she thought they became mates, maybe she fancied him. She likely did email, text and call him. To what extent I don’t know but an inappropriate amount for sure.

everything else can’t really be proven, the sexual assault, her attacking his girlfriend etc

I suppose it wouldn’t have made for an interesting show if she had stalked him but to a much much lesser extent

RG was at pains to say he disguised her identity, when he didn't in any meaningful way. I don't doubt she stalked/harrassed him and he does have a right to write about his lived experience. I think making up assault, a prison sentence (and who knows what else) crosses the line in this circumstance. It should have been made much clearer that some aspects did not happen or he should have changed enough for it to be fiction. This is an uneasy mix.

"Emotional truth", like "alternative truth", is not actual truth.

Oh dear, the description of the real life "Derrien" sounds like my celebrity crush. And when I googled his name and baby reindeer there are mentions of him frequenting the bar that the program pub is based on. Always seems like a decent guy, but that's no proof of anything...

@Totallymessed Who? Can you do initials/more clues

Harassment vs stalking there is a difference.

In 2017, Gadd complained to police that he was being stalked by Harvey, which led to a First Instance Harassment Warning being issued against her. She has never been to prison or convicted for stalking.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/baby-reindeers-real-life-martha-32762707

On the police website (https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/what-is-stalking-harassment/) it says:Stalking and harassment is when someone repeatedly behaves in a way that makes you feel scared, distressed or threatened. There are different types of stalking and harassment and anyone can be a victim. Stalking and harassment are offences under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Harassment

Someone you know could be harassing you, like a neighbour, or people from your local area or it could be a stranger. Harassment may include:

• bullying at school or in the workplace
• cyber stalking (using the internet to harass someone)
• antisocial behaviour
• sending abusive text messages
• sending unwanted gifts
• unwanted phone calls, letters, emails or visits

It's harassment if the unwanted behaviour has happened more than once.

Stalking

Stalking is like harassment, but it's more aggressive. The stalker will have an obsession with the person they're targeting.Someone you know could be stalking you; an ex partner or a person you were friends with, or it might be a stranger. If it's someone you know, or knew, it doesn't mean that it's your fault; it's still stalking and it's an offence. Stalking may include:

• regularly following someone
• repeatedly going uninvited to their home
• checking someone’s internet use, email or other electronic communication
• hanging around somewhere they know the person often visits
• interfering with their property
• watching or spying on someone
• identity theft (signing-up to services, buying things in someone's name)

It's stalking if the unwanted behaviour has happened more than once.The four warning signs of stalkingIf the behaviour you're experiencing is:FixatedObsessiveUnwantedRepeated

Online stalking and harassment
Social networking sites, chat rooms, gaming sites and other forums are often used to stalk and harass someone, for example:

• to get personal information
• to communicate (calls, texts, emails, social media, creating fake accounts)
• damaging the reputation
• spamming and sending viruses
• tricking other internet users into harassing or threatening
• identity theft
• threats to share private information, photographs, copies of messages

Presumably the police could have taken action against Fiona Harvey for stalking if they felt it met the criteria? But as we saw in the series it did not meet the criteria.

Richard Gadd disagrees with this situation (i.e the criteria for stalking), but has also made clear he feels sorry for his 'stalker' and acknowledges his contribution to the situation developing. https://www.ok.co.uk/tv/i-behaved-like-pk32608793

So I think there is an issue with the use of the term stalker in this series too. I realise he felt stalked, but that is somewhat misleading in terms of what Fiona Harvey was guilty of in the eyes of the law. The inclusion of an untrue conviction and jail term for stalking in the series further demonises and is defamatory to Fiona Harvey.

I am not saying what she did was ok or harmless, or that Richard Gadd's is not entitled to say his lived experience was best described as stalking in his view - just pointing out the need to be careful in what is portrayed about someone. The series leads people to think 'Martha' is a convicted stalker with a criminal record, and she is not. So that is very wrong.

@Wingding are you saying you don’t think she was actually a stalker? From reading interviews with Gadd it does seem like - at least according to him - her behaviour did fit the criteria for stalking that you’ve listed above. He was genuinely distressed by her obsessive behaviour to him which was very far from normal. And he wasn’t the only person to feel threatened by her. I think he said the reason he didn’t pursue court and criminal charges was because he felt sorry for her and believed she was mentally ill.

Good points, I'll do some more research and check it out again Bananagirl. If he said the reason he didn’t pursue court and criminal charges was because he felt sorry for her and believed she was mentally ill ten it would be good to have the source. It looks like the website i saw was out of date.

New offences of stalking (in addition to existing offences of harassment) were introduced in 2012. The offences are harassment which involves a course of conduct that amounts to stalking. There are two offences, stalking involving fear of violence and stalking involving serious alarm or distress.
http://howardssolicitors.co.uk/stalking/

Re my comments:

I was reading things today including things on RG's website, which got me looking into this. It is widely reported that RG went to the police to report stalking . But based on news reports she is not a convicted stalker. RG talks about stalking, but in the comments about his experiences with the police talks about difficulties with getting them to acknowledge a problem (referring a lot to harassment). Things I've read say that the police were dismissive of Gadd's claims initially (which is shown in BR). This has clearly been a source of frustration for RG. It looked like the issue was a need for direct threats. What he has said suggests he needed proof of threats (physical threats?). There is nothing anywhere I saw that says she did that. But maybe I haven't seen that yet? What is in the series doesn't reflect the truth of what actually happened in everything - some things but not all things it looks like.

"When Gadd attempted to go to the police, he was told he needed concrete evidence of direct threats. “The laws surrounding harassment and abuse are so stupid,” he says, “because they look for black and white, good and evil, and that’s not how it works. I could intimidate you by turning up to your workplace every day and getting a coffee over the road and staring through the window at you. You might feel very uncomfortable about that.” I certainly would. “But unless you can prove that there’s some sort of physical threat, he can do as he pleases. That’s really jeopardising your life. But you can really affect someone’s life within the parameters of legality, and that is sort of mad.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/richard-gadd-baby-reindeer-interview-stalking-martha-bush-theatre-london-tickets-a9145996.html
“I was getting told off for harassing the police about being harassed,” says Gadd. He describes her as a harasser in this article.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2019/sep/10/richard-gadd-stalker-baby-reindeer

"I was now in the fourth year of being stalked, by a woman, whose only skill greater than her ability to harass was her ability to evade the law. "
https://www.richardgadd.com/press/interview-netflix-25th-march-2023/

One aspect of comedy, or at least, absurdity, in the show is in your interactions with the police. What was your experience of trying to bring charges against your stalker?
I do think the institution needs improvement, especially around stalking. I can think of numerous examples where people have complained to the police about a stalker but because maybe they’ve had a previous relationship the police haven’t taken it seriously. They can look for a concrete reason to arrest… but sometimes situations are more nuanced than that. The first thing the police should do is try to preserve the safety of the person who is making the report rather than going through a long, arduous process to work out whether they should believe them or not.
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/baby-reindeer-netflix-richard-gadd-interview

The fourth man named in places on the net has the cat and is a Buddhist. That person is reasonably famous. And is also married/straight.
Therefore you definitely have a composite of four people that Gadd has worked with - whether deliberate or unconscious, that character has been written very poorly as it means that the four Gadd worked with were all put under scrutiny.
You write what you know and base people on those in your life when it is clearly fiction. Blur the lines (in film or in literature) and you stand upsetting those who see facets of themselves in your characters. Whilst that is an occupational hazard, it's hardly fair when it is an abusing character. That said, in some early past Fringe shows the conceit was that Gadd's clearly fictional "parents" were
a junkie dad, a randy mum/trailer park mum/prostitute mum and the shooting of a brother that doesn't exist irl. Those were all black humour man in freefall shows not purporting to be real.

There was an interesting programme on this yesterday evening with Piers Morgan defending his interview with Fiona. Can be heard here.

The Media Show - Baby Reindeer: truth or fiction? - BBC Sounds

Gadd himself said in his last words on the subject:

“I know for every single part, there’s been about five or six people who have been sort of named as each part, even all the way down to the pub manager”

Not really, in various interviews he made it clear that she didn’t go to prison in real life. He was open about the differences between the real life events and the show.

I don’t think he wanted her in prison.

He said she needed help with her mental health. He wanted her to stop but still cared about her.

If you read and watch the interviews with RG as well as watching the series the complexities fall into place.

But he and netflix are saying it is a true story so one lie uncovered and I think she has a case.

@AprilPoisson very interesting interview thank for you for that link.

Richard Gadd has said it’s ‘emotionally true’ and that scenes were made up for the show.

I guess the problem is, that without reading around it, his interviews etc. you’re left with that opening, ‘this is a true story.’ So I suppose people might just watch the show and take it all as fact. But it’s not. And there’s lots of info out there explaining that.

In the Piers interview he asked her if she loved Gadd. She obviously did even though dismissing the idea, and must at some point have thought (and to some extent been led to believe) he had sincere feelings for her. An element of the BR story is Richard Gadd's feelings about what happened with 'Martha', and clearly guilt over some of his behaviour and leading her on at the time.

An article today in the Daily Mail is interesting in relation to the culture at the pub, and Gadd's behaviour. <a class="break-all" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13430191/Barmaid-worked-Baby-Reindeers-Richard-Gadd-Hawley-Arms-says-stalker-Fiona-Harvey-targeted-joke-pub-staff-enjoyed-misogynistic-culture-fuelled-drug-taking-alcohol-promiscuousness.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13430191/Barmaid-worked-Baby-Reindeers-Richard-Gadd-Hawley-Arms-says-stalker-Fiona-Harvey-targeted-joke-pub-staff-enjoyed-misogynistic-culture-fuelled-drug-taking-alcohol-promiscuousness.html

Somebody else on Reddit (female) who frequented the Hawley Arms also made interesting observations about the way Fiona Harvey was treated and behaved. https://www.reddit.com/r/BabyReindeerTVSeries/comments/1co9aez/anyone_else_ever_drank_in_the_hawley_arms_here/

Why do you think it is a composite and not just mumbo jumbo rich man? He fits the character in BR, and some people have pulled together a lot of evidence.

By all means, please cite the evidence or give a source.
I would have thought a composite was obvious, given you have two facets for at least three different people - whereas with Fiona there were at least six for one.

PM sent.

From your source:
I listened to it all. It was a bloody hard slog. More timey wimey than .
Nonetheless, interesting thank you. Releasing and weaponising information, even if not relevant, is mentioned at the top of that broadcast so I shall be careful in the summing up.

Main points from it:
The Super Slice reporting didn't do any deep diving
There are darker themes (e.g. drug use) in the films mentioned/Gadd's other shows
You can join the dots between drugs/gay themes between fiction/rl but not enough to accuse.
Much was made from a falsely-identified man resigning (coincidental) but more should be made from another director's career trajectory/dropped projects.
Timelines of shows' content/timelines of companies' interests are interesting

What was most interesting was the name change.
The spiritual company was dissolved January 2023.
Both shamans listed as workshop facilitators for QSF under first names only.
Whilst cynical me thinks all of that mumbo-jumbo was a potential money-spinner in Covid times, the even more cynical me is as concerned as the broadcaster that events to do with finding your inner self/rites of passage are logged as 18+ and are green lit at festivals.

None of that diverts from the fact that the Derrian as portrayed in Baby Reindeer was more disguised than Fiona Harvey:

different nationality
different physicality
different pet
different show reference (two others are alluded to more directly)

Compare that with how close Fiona is to her fictional counterpart.

Agree that Martha, and associated details relating to her, bears closer resemblance to the real person than other characters. I wonder if that was done on purpose? I have managed to read the original play script (it's available in electronic format), via a University library membership I have. In that Martha is Irish. So the Netflix version moved closer to the real person in accent interestingly. Further thought is that when Gadd knew FH it seems she was thinner, dressed better, different hair etc. So perhaps he thought Martha in BR would not resemble her, not realising how much FH has changed over the years to a closer approximation of the character in the series? I would also imagine RG would be more concerned about backlash from the groomer, who will have money and connections. So maybe more care in depiction? Though I can't imagine he'd have wanted to out FH in the way that has happened, and release the tsunami of her reaction to this. Note mumbo jumbo man has had a beard in the past and looked more similar to Darrien then. Teri is also different in the play. Red hair, mediterranean looking, more glamorous, PhD in anthropology. There are quite a few differences between the play and the series across the board. And internet sources, (articles and so on), have variations in quite a few of the 'facts' too. What happened when, where etc.

She hasn't changed a bit. There are so many stories like this and more going back 3 decades.

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/12710396/baby-reindeer-fiona-harvey-keir-starmer-emails/

I am sure there will be many more. And not just high profile people. An American lady who has a food FB page and blog commented below one of the Piers You tube videos " I was in voice conversations with Fiona since last November. She left voice messages daily on my food page. Most were rambling. Some were fairly short, only a couple of minutes. Some were as long as 8 or 10 minutes. She did not seem threatening in any way, but it did appear to me that she thought we had some kind of relationship or friendship. I was always very nice to her as a response. The messages stopped on the 13th of April. I did wonder why until the day I watched your interview with her and I thought hey, I know that person. I checked and it was THE Fiona Harvey who had been sending me the messages. I recognised her voice and her face. I think I dodged a bullet there." It is FH as there are comments on the lady's FB page from the real FH FB account.
FH's often inappropriate and uncontrolled communications with a lot of people, in a lot of places, over a long time, look like they are heading her into big trouble.

Just watching Piers ‘ interview.
Looks like the woman being accused of being Martha is not who the story is about. So either it’s all fiction or there is another woman and he has cobbled together different stories and experiences.

I take that back -he is now asking about her,Fiona,being sacked by the wife of the Labour Party member. All a bit strange.