Witnessed a will payment dilemma

[justasking111]

Husband was asked to witness a neighbour will as was another neighbour.

Neighbour had a solicitor draw it up, signed it then passed it to another neighbour then my husband to sign. He did this, other neighbour signatory then said that the will neighbour had given them some money as a thank you. Husband said no you keep it. Neighbour said thanks they'll buy a bottle of wine. Well it turns out that the elderly neighbour gave £200 as a thank you.

We're in a quandary now because husband didn't witness the elderly neighbour signing, nor did he take any money for signing as a witness.

The neighbour who told us about the payment is a recipient in the will so no reason to doubt her.

Could we be in trouble. I ask this because the person whose will it is has disinherited a child because he's been caught emptying accounts of hers.

Would he have grounds to drag us into this mess if he finds out he's getting nothing?

Why would you assume the £200 came from the person whose will it is rather than the beneficiary of the will who asked the neighbour and your DH to be witnesses ie the person who might be defrauding your elderly neighbour?

Do you know the name of the solicitor involved? You can find out where they work through their name.

If the solicitor involved a beneficiary? Or is it the neighbour who is a beneficiary, who the solicitor is related to?

Does the solicitor know the will maker?

Why would the elderly lady pay a witness £200 if all is above board?

Even a professional, such as a doctor or solicitor, wouldn't charge £200 to be a witness!

Her husband has literally declared in a legal document that he’s witnessed something he hasn’t.

It needs sorting as a matter of urgency especially given how frail the neighbours sound.

😂

We're not responsible for the whole road. We do favours for immediate neighbours when asked

This is different though. It's not a mere "favour". Your OH has effectively testified that he has properly witnessed a binding legal document when he has not. And in the knowledge that another party was offering a financial incentive to do so. This is not in the same category as giving someone a few firelighters for their BBQ or picking a neighbour's son up from Cubs.

In case further information is needed:

Close to home: spotting elder abuse | The Law Society

Action on Elder Abuse (thenationalcareline.org)

Financial abuse: what is it? | Age UK

This warrants being concerned about. It warrants taking notice of. If there is fraud or abuse going on then your OH has (knowingly or otherwise) implicated himself in it. If there's any fallout from this, he will be associated with it.

Why is this funny?

OK.

Assuming this whole thread is not a joke.

Best case scenario is that this is a genuine will, reflecting the genuine intentions of the lady, who is of sound mind. It is invalid because it hasn't been witnessed properly but it isn't challenged and your husband is never called upon to testify that he actually witnessed her signature. Her estate is distributed in accordance with her wishes.

Less good scenario, it is a genuine will, reflecting the genuine intentions of the lady, who is of sound mind. It is invalid because it hasn't been witnessed properly, it is successfully challenged by someone (e.g. the person who has been cut out of it) and declared invalid. Her estate is distributed according to the terms of her most recent valid will, or if there isn't one, under the intestacy rules. This was not her intention. Your husband and the other witness may be told off by a judge for buggering up what would have been a valid will.

Another bad scenario, it is not a genuine will because she is not of sound mind, has been coerced and/or her signature has been forged. It is invalid because it hasn't been witnessed properly, it is successfully challenged by someone (e.g. the person who has been cut out of it) and declared invalid. Her estate is distributed according to the terms of her most recent valid will, or if there isn't one, under the intestacy rules. This was her intention. Your husband and the other witness may be told off by a judge for negligently aiding and abetting someone in committing a crime.

Worst case scenario, it is not a genuine will because she is not of sound mind, has been coerced and/or her signature has been forged; however, this is not discovered and the lady's estate is distributed in accordance with the fake will. Your husband and the other witness have helped someone defraud a vulnerable older lady and her estate is distributed to the wrong people.

The only way to find out what her true intentions are is to speak to her before she dies.

If you really aren't willing to go and see her yourselves I would at least call social services to see if she is on their radar or possibly notify the police.

What an absolute bugger's muddle your husband has got himself involved in.

Leaving aside the money issue, the fact your DH said he witnessed it when he didn't see the neighbour sign it is really not great.

At least if the neighbour handed it to your DH, your DH can be pretty sure the neighbour DID in fact sign it (so it hasn't come via a third person who could have forged the neighbour's signature or switched out pages).

But I'd be inclined to suggest the will is printed out again and everyone gets together in one room to sign /witness it. Better that these things are done properly

Just seen this "Nope haven't seen her since pre covid. She's housebound."

This is really bad, in afraid. The will could be false, couldn't it? Not sure what I'd do but perhaps contacting the solicitors to confess and say it needs to be redone in the presence of the testator.

I don't think this counts as witnessing a will.

Seriously, who would accept £200 of an elderly person for doing that.

A dishonest person who is being bribed to help legitimise a document they know is fake, or a useful idiot for whom the incentive of £200 is enticing enough to make them not ask any questions.

True, if it’s just incompetence. If there has been fraud and/or coercion, her DH is going to be dragged into any investigation.

actually the witmesses don't have to sign it at the same time. Its easier if they do but not required https://www.gov.uk/make-will/make-sure-your-will-is-legal#:~:text=Signing%20and%20witnessing%20your%20will&text=When%20your%20witnesses%20sign%20your,same%20time%20as%20each%20other.

Well my incompetent husband has returned. I put my concerns to him and was told to butt out quite firmly. I know nothing apparently.

So many thanks for your support, none of you told me to butt out.

I shan't be accompanying him to court if it all blows up.

I was going to say that if your house insurance includes a legal advice line, your DH could get some free advice on what to do. But it seems that he's refusing to even consider that anything needs to be done.

Jesus OP, sounds like you should LTB

If he wanted you not to know, he shouldn't have told you.

I would still report to social services or the police.

You're complicit in this too now.

But hey ho, not your problem ay?

I'm sorry you've received that response @justasking111. Perhaps he doesn't understand the seriousness of what he's done. But you were concerned enough to ask the question - if you wanted to contact any of the organisations in my previous post anonymously to report your concerns without implicating your husband I'm sure they would be happy to speak to you.

I know that I could not have learned about what has been going on and not at least rung someone to raise a flag. I couldn't live with myself if it came out that a vulnerable person was being abused and I'd stood aside to let it happen. But if he's going to make things difficult for you then you have to do what's best for you. And any fall-out will be his alone to deal with. At least you asked the question.

Do you have the name and address of the solicitor ? If so I would write a letter explaining the situation . Make it clear that your husband retracts his signature and did not fully consider the circumstances. Say you have kept a copy of the letter and send the original signed for .

I would say this definitely will blow up eventually because the relative who thought they were going to get the money will no doubt query the will and everyone who signed as witnesses.

This is both legally and morally very wrong . Get it sorted asap.

This. Everything else is a red herring.

Put it in writing immediately a call could get ignored . And take a copy and don’t let go of it.

I am afraid it sounds like the £200 was because they were asked to witness a housebound ladies will and they didn’t witness it. It is a problem!

The whole point of being a witness is that you actually witness the signature with your very eyes.

What a stupid thing to do. I'd be reporting this and myself to the police.