Have you ever come across munchausens by proxy?

[Namechangeone]

As per my username I’ve name changed. It’s quite an identifying situation so I’m not going to go into too much detail but don’t want to drip feed either

Edited for clarity: Has anyone experienced munchausen by proxy themselves or known someone that has? I could be wrong about this but it's what myself and others suspect.

Im middle child of 5. Us older 3 lived with grandparents, youngest 2 with parents.

I unfortunately have had quite bad luck when it comes to health. Various ICU stays, operations, long term conditions. No empathy from my parents and now grandparents unfortunately have died.

My younger brother who grew up with my parents has perfect health, had many scans after our mum claiming my brother can't barely walk/has back pain/stomach pain all sorts. Had every test going from teens until now (he is late 20s). Even went as far as paying for private tests because they didn't believe nhs consultants.
They've bought him a wheelchair/crutches for when things are bad - this typically happens when I've just had a hospital stay or there's an event coming up.
In privacy he walks around at home normal. He lives next door in a house they built for him but stays at parents house.

Recently they took him to A&E saying he needed emergency surgery as he's suddenly paralysed - scans were clear. This was day 1 after myself being diagnosed with lymphoma.

He has had every scan going that you can think of and multiple opinions. Also my brother and parents have been offered psychiatric support many times (and declined)

At home he doesn't need to even take paracetamol but if there is an event, he's in agony and needs pain relief and looking after. Apparently can't take tablets so it's calpol 🤦‍♀️
They have a prayer WhatsApp group for him & regular social media posts.

Im not envious of the lack of empathy I have - I'm quite happy in my own bubble & I wouldn't want to live this fake life. I had a good childhood with my grandparents, although miss my gran especially a lot with everything going on in my personal life.
I do have therapy/counselling etc & continue to throughout the years.

Everything had gone back to "normal" with them all but my brother is getting married in a couple of weeks and the wheelchair etc is back out. This happened after the A&E visit one day after my lymphoma diagnosis.
I can't get my head around it all.

I just basically wondered has anyone else had this experience or similar with a family member?

95% of the time it doesn't bother me, I have my own life, but then I do get times where it bothers me (like tonight for some reason!)

I think milder forms of this are common. It's like parents can't acknowledge to themselves, we totally failed our first three children. It's easier on the ego to create and then really lean into a narrative that our younger child needed so much extra care and we, stepped up and gave that care. I bet of the two younger siblings they projected this illness on to the more compliant of the two.

@Namechangeone
I'm sorry about your diagnosis and understand you may be feeling really sensitive right now, but I don't think you should take the thread down.
You have a namechange to operate under and a chance to talk about something important both to you and others.

Lots of people trying to put different parts of a jigsaw together, because this is what it is, and of course there are a few crappy replies. There always will be, it's the internet.
You've raised a very important conversation from one angle, and across a long time span. It will automatically bring those from the other side of this same coin, and those who are conflicted by seeing both sides. Try to ignore those who want to take things out on you rather than talk about why it's such a minefield.

It's clear there are attachment issues going on with your mother and her children. Whatever is going on there, whether it's extreme health anxiety about the child/ren she managed to bring up herself, or MBP, or there are some genuine problems with your brother, massively exaggerated either by anxiety, or psychological need, and him encouraged to be complicit, or a load of overlap, it is clear it has not done your brother any favors.

I understand so totally the unmet desire that your mother could step up and love you, regardless of a history of her neglecting you, instead of deflecting attention onto your brother. Finding yourself unwell and immediate attention transferred to your brother, is a hard thing to take. But IME it's what parents who never parented, do. 'That one I didn't do much with is unwell and not ok, - quick look at this one that I did parent, it's unwell but fine!

My mother simply wasn't capable of doing any better with me than she did. I have worked to come to terms with what wasn't there.
But even then, I still find myself looking in askance at those who took my sibling in as desirable and needy and lavished so much on them, and rejected me as undesirable and capable, despite me being just a child.

Parenting oneself in fucked up family dynamic fallout's is hard going. well done for getting to here.

I think very mild forms of this are not uncommon. The parent who constantly tries to get a diagnosis of ADHD or ASD in spite of being told their child does not meet the diagnostic criteria. But in these cases it is a parent looking for reasons for their childs behaviour that do not involve them looking at themselves or their family set up. For example, maybe your child is disregulated because in their short life they have already had four "daddies" living with them.

Interesting that you're the truth teller and any 'presentation' of another narrative is met with ''Have you taken your medication?''

In other words, a warning, anybody who challenges the narrative is CRAZY

I've had the same in my own family. No MBP but just that same determination from my mother to create the narrative. THIS is how it is. Anybody who were to scratch their chin and say 'um, but, that's not what I've experienced'' is going to be labelled awkard,difficult,aggressive,detached-from-reality,insane,angry - you name it. You will have to back down cos in some families, there is one narrative. You better believe it or you'll be labelled detached from reality before you can mumble what just happened.

This comment reveals far more about you than it does the op.

@Namechangeone

I haven't read the whole thread, just the first few and last few pages.
I had no trouble understanding your opening post.
Please don't feel you have to have the thread taken down. You've done nothing wrong, but unfortunately some Mumsnetters seem to delight in making "shitty comments".
MSBP is a condition which is little known, but has been around for a long time.
I used to be a social worker, and was allocated a case where a child was being treated by his mother in very similar ways to what your DM is doing to your DB. This was in the 80's. Social Services became involved when staff at the hospital where the boy had been admitted yet again became concerned at his mother's behaviour.
They also consulted a very astute psychiatrist who said quite unequivocally that he believed the mother was suffering from MSBP, something that neither I nor the paediatric staff had ever heard of.
Eventually we took this boy into care because he was actually very damaged and vulnerable. I don't know if that would happen now - the bar seems to be set much lower when it comes to safeguarding children.
I wish a teacher or other professional had picked up on what was happening with your DB when he was a child - easy for me to say in hindsight.
Obviously I'm in now way qualified to proclaim that your DM has MSBP, and I don't know what to advise now that he is an adult.
But please look after yourself, and definitely take up @Kissmystarfish 's offer.
It might help you enormously

@Kissmystarfish I don't know if it's a flipside of the same coin but growing up in my house I was not allowed to be ill! Have you experienced that? If I were ever tired or had a headache I had to hide it from my mother because it would make her angry. Either she didn't believe you and would accuse you of faking or she'd push you out into the cold and tell you that you'd feel better at the bus stop. my father is her foot soldier, always backs her up but I notice he always has little ailments, nothing major, a bad knee, a dodgy tummy. I think it's his way of trying to be seen in a relationship where he's handed over his power to back her up. I'm out of the madness now and they all label me detached from reality ! they don't need me to be there. either way, I'm ''crazy''. That's why @Namechangeone comment that they would ask her ''have you taken your medication?'' made me think, ah, I see. ONE perspective, theirs. if you suggest you see things differently, it's ''have you taken your medication?''.

reminds me of this, lol.

I haven't read the full thread, but had no issues understanding your post op.

I am very sorry you are going through this.

Yes, I have encountered something along these lines before and continue to observe it from a distance. I have an acquaintance (no longer a close friend, though we were once) who displays some symptoms of Munchausen's by proxy, and indeed Munchausen's. She is convinced her young child is autistic, even though he has been assessed many, many times and so far the professionals have said not. She also maintains that she is disabled, though I have serious doubts about that.

I won't go into huge amounts of detail and I now observe lots of it from afar so I don't know the full story. However, my view is that she has created a narrative of victimhood for herself .... That she posts about endlessly on social media to garner sympathy, attention and sometimes financial support. It is almost like she has created a whole new persona - the disabled, abused, survivor who is fighting for a child.

There are various other factors at play that are quite frankly v concerning, to the extent that a year ago I decided to raise a safeguarding concern re her child.

So. The oP states that her brother fully believes he is unwell

which means he does NOT have factitious disorder (the new name for muchausens.)

So sorry you’re ill and that your mum didn’t love you, that’s tough.
Your brothers to-be wife - does she know he’s lying? eg, the wheelchair. Surely she will see he’s fabricating when she marries him?

An old school friend. She lied about having cancer (another friend in our group actually did have cancer, and we suspect she was jealous of the support our group of friends was giving her), then with each of her three children she was determined to foist ADHD, autism, physical and life limiting diseases on them. The oldest child lived with her father, saw her mother fleetingly, because the ex-husband recognised something wasn't right long before those of us who'd known her since 5 or 11, did. He actually had her sectioned and was awarded full physical custody of their now 18 year old, when she was 2-ish. Old friend went on to have two more children with ex-husband number two, who have also been given a gambit of things wrong with them (her son was allegedly living under the cloud of potential early death, shockingly, according to old friend).

Sadly, I wound up reporting old friend to Children's Services a few years back when she refused to listen to DD1's statements that her stepfather was sexually assaulting her. Ex-husband had tried, but had his allegations dismissed because he was apparently jealous... I called, reported, then called her parents - who listened, and supported the report that I made, and the subsequent one that ex #1 made (DD1 was... I want to say 13 or 14, it's been a while).

I still can't quite wrap my head around it, but it's worse for DD1, who is struggling with their identity enough that ex #1 is questioning how much is genuinely gender dysmorphia, and how much is being told that X, Y and Z were wrong with them, falsely, as a very young child by their own mother. DS and DD2 are in the custody of their father and maternal grandparents. Old friend has very little to do with any of her children.

She didn't want the truth of CSA against her oldest daughter to come to light, because that would be bad attention. But if there was illness, or disabilities... she'd get attention, sympathy, who knows what else.

Horrifically, the signs were always there (she turned up in a sheer negligee - allegedly her mothers (?!) to my 18th, for example), but because she was my best friend from the age of 11... I forgave and turned a blind eye to a lot of her attention seeking. Most of our group did. And at what cost? Her kids.

I think it's a really difficult one to call because there are illnesses that can be difficult to tell how much is in the mind; and that isn't saying that those illnesses are in the mind, just that it can be difficult, even for the person involved to know.

I mean my dd if you ask her pain out of 10, goes from 8 to about 15. My ds nearly was sent home with appendicitis because he graded the pain at 2-4. We cannot tell how people are feeling for illnesses, and if people start worrying about a specific illness then it's easy to think that you are aching there etc. I've certainly had where I've started worrying about something and can convince myself I've got the symptom that shows you have it. The mind is very powerful.

I knew someone who had a very traumatic change in her life. Her whole life changed in an evening with a knock on the door. She went from having a very comfortable life, to life being a struggle though no fault of her own.

Around a year after that I remember her asking if I could take her dd to school because her ds (both junior school age) had hit his head and she wanted to take him to A&E to check out.
He had his appendix out while in; I remember looking back on my texts to check that she had said "concussion" not tummy ache! She had people looking after her dd and fetching things for her in hospital. After that there seemed to be always something small that they were going to A&E for; two to three times a month between the children. Nothing big, though, but when they were in A&E there was always appeals going out from her for something they'd forgotten or similar to be brought, so, iyswim, we always knew they were there.

They moved away, I lost contact. I heard by a (medical) friend that she'd phoned her up ask how to get her ds diagnosed with dyspraxia, which she was a bit confused by as her ds hadn't, when we'd known them, shown any signs. I believe that was refused when tested for, and then she phoned the same friend distraught that her dd must have dyslexia, and asking where the best place to go to definitely get a diagnosis. Again, no signs when we knew the child; she'd been noticeably good at English, which isn't necessarily meaning that they can't have dyslexia. She bought her dd those yellow glasses that some people with dyslexia find helpful, I believe, but I don't think she actually got a diagnosis. She didn't wear them much anyway.

Then a couple of years later she sent a friend request on fb, which I accepted.
And found that she almost never mentioned her ds, but her fb was full of her (now in mid teens) dd having tests for various illnesses. If there was ever a photo of her doing something not in hospital, then they were "on day release" or "just checked out; got to be back later".
Gradually I realised that the close up photos (with feeding tube in) were pretty much all taken at the same time (eg same clothes) and the distance ones her dd was looking fine, pretty active and definitely no feeding tube nor signs of illness. Some of the things she was doing were not really advisable with the symptoms given on fb.

At a similar time the friend above approached me (having seen I was on the fb too) and we were chatting, and I realised she was trying to find out if I was feeling as uncomfortable as she was on the information given.
But it was difficult. We had similar concerns with what we saw, but definitely didn't feel we knew enough to say either way. At that time her dd was turning 18 at the end of year 13 (and was not taking up her place at uni because she was too ill to be away from home - it was a good law place that was tough to get in too, and I felt for her).

And then the mum suddenly got into park run. And her fb feed was suddenly full of times, distances, new runs to do etc. Since then, there hasn't been a post about her dd's illnesses. We only hear of her when she joins in park run - and does very well.

Now I don't know what the situation is. It may be her dd told her not to post any more. Or it may be that it was her dd who was panicking and asking for tests. The only thing I'll say is I'm very glad it stopped, whether it was entirely made up for fb, or that she was getting worrying symptoms that needed testing, because I'm sure I don't know what the right thing to do was.

Yes, @BippityBopper, the Mum I know definitely isn’t making her children physically ill, it’s more a bad case of health anxiety. She’s convinced that every ailment they catch is serious and that they show signs of Autism/ASD/ADHD. Perhaps they will be diagnosed, but their physical health seems normal.

Another sad part is that the children live somewhat restricted lives due to her fears, not socializing much, not allowed to be in clubs or teams, etc.

I wonder how does your mother manages to achieve this. I realise the whole thing is beyond normal behaviour but even when your brother has been conditioned all his life it still baffles me how she does it.
Must be very hard to watch this. I am pretty sure that bot your autoimmunune disease and the lymphoma have connection to this family environment. If you havent look into psychosomatic causes of illnesses.
My own family is toxic but this is all yet another level. Look after yourself. Best wishes.

I think my mum has it, My younger brother (22) is Autistic and she fabricates symptoms.. (can't talk on the phone, manage his own money, catch a bus, have a job, have a social life of any kind.) All bullshit, he stayed with me for 6 months a few years ago and apart from the job he managed fine with everything else.
I think her motives are attention and the money she receives in benefits.
I'm not sure how true this is but I read a lot of munchausens by proxy is motivated by financial gain.
I went no contact 3 years ago, still in contact with brother though.
Have you ever tried speaking to your brother about the situation and seeing if he needs help confronting your parents with the truth?

I was accused of it, by primary school Senco who opposed ds1 being sent for ASD assessment. That is really common. NAS (National Autistic Society) says it's becoming more and more if a problem, schools etc using the allegation to bully parents.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.autismeye.com/parents-accused-of-fabricated-illness/&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjHx8ul9Z6FAxWtwQIHHdbWAEsQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1tp373SKzIfFbtacsy-rvw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">fii

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.pdasociety.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/A-new-approach-to-identification-of-FII.pdf&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjHx8ul9Z6FAxWtwQIHHdbWAEsQFnoECBwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0J3pGdJyfhbiGHcDo-IGYt" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">pda

This would fall under FII and affecting social and emotional development. It’s one of the things thrown at us - till I produced receipts for all the clubs dc went to ! That was just one of many incorrect accusations but I had proof to counter every single one of them although it was frustrating when I had to repeatedly submit some of it as it was ignored at first I had to really push as it was as if some professionals involved wanted their speculation recorded and they then presented it as fact and did not like me having clear evidence to the contrary

Started for us with school too - as soon as we needed support it seemed to trigger off a hugely defensive multi level attack on me and making up rubbish to discredit everything I said about my own dc

Sorry, @blueparrotsinagreenhouse , I might have missed your previous post. Are you saying that your health concerns weren’t taken seriously, I.e., they were genuine, but medical professionals didn’t believe yiu? That’s awful. 💐

I think the situation I’m describing is different as I’ve known this mum nearly all our lives and she’s changed so much, she’s become such an anxious person. It’s sad to observe. 🙁

Thank you, this was one of the ones that stung.
Weather he works or not isnt my business and it’s just a tiny part of the puzzle.
He here every benefit going apparently & is well enough to do party days at a time, drink/drugs etc and ONS before this fiancée.

He has had so many tests, cancer scares, told what to say and admits it.

If he has a cold for example then to him he’s dying.
I think in his mind he believes it now.

Its the being normal then when something happens to one of us, he’s having a “flare”.

It’s a very unhealthy relationship, he watches tv in bed with my mum, much more to it. Anyone that so much as questions it, is cut off,
Of course the wider family all whisper about it behind their back.

It takes away from those that genuinely need medical appointments and to see specialists etc:
My brother literally just goes with what mum says.

Yes it does sound like a very different situation and very sad 😔

I wasn’t believed at all about my child’s needs when we asked for support , then behind the scenes (I found out after via a SAR) it transpired the school were circulating a report they’d written outlining their concerns that I had FII and it was just absolutely full of made up speculation presented as facts. That I didn’t let my child access anything and was making them appear unwell as I wanted attention and financial gain for myself etc etc . We fought every point and had to prove ourselves but it was a horrible experience

It was a school-school nurse- social services triangle and it only fell apart for them when I said the easy way to address your concerns is to involve health-speak to the consultant etc they can immediately tell you exactly what’s going on as soon as we did that and as soon as I showed proof of out of school activities etc they backed off . School had been trying to say no diagnosis and it kept being repeated and said by others but none thought to actually check with any of the actual doctors !

@SpaghettiWithaYeti There is/was far more to the story than my post. I didn’t want to be outing so left it deliberately vague. I’m not suggesting that if you’re too ill for school, you’re too ill to play video games.

Ours was school reputation - social services - social services under investigation themselves, triangle.

This is the problem, some flags for potential abuse can also be flags for legitimate parental concerns.
Seeking professional assessment of ASD after school reporting suspected MBP (as it was then) to social services, IS a potential red flag.

I understand that now, but didn't know at the time.
The nuance ignored, was that it was actually the first attempt at getting any assessment outside school saying no, and no previous going to Drs etc.
Just a straight up disagreement between parent and school head as to what might be going on here.

Failing to seek another school when suggested your dc didn't fit - I don't know. But it was proffered to SS as a red flag by the school..

Being a disabled parent oneself IS sadly another red flag as it points to the parent being highly likely to have unmet needs.

But additionally parents who are guilty of FD to others (MBP) often claim to be disabled themselves, creating another possible red flag, and on it all goes.

By the time GOSH started to step in, SS had 'uncovered' (in their eyes) there had been child deaths years previously, another red flag. I came from a difficult background, another red flag, I'd been in care, huge red flag, and + and + and.

I get it, those red flags sadly should press some buttons, but shouldn't be taken as any sort of proof of wrong doing, and a parent should be evaluated by medical professionals, not 'diagnosis' by assumptions.. No one was looking at any 'green' flags, either. It was all very unprofessional and damaging.