Can we talk about ageing populations?

[Kendodd]

Birth rates around the world are collapsing. South Korea has the lowest birth rate at about 0.7. That means for every 100 people, 35 children will be born. There are predicted to be more people over 65 than under very soon. Many countries are predicted to see their populations half be 2100. While I think this is great for the planet and wouldn't want to change things, it will present problems.

What to do?

There's already a crisis of recruitment in care. Throwing more money at it won't work, we need people to do other jobs as well. Limiting care/health care to the elderly, I can't see how that would work either. Also, most of these countries are democracies, the elderly would be the most powerful voting block.

Anyone any ideas?

You and your whiney millennial friends can talk all you want, but I expect to be here in my paid-for house enjoying my final-salary pension for at least another decade and a half. Bite me.

Instead of trying to solve the supply side of carers we need to be looking at the demand side.
I read that on average people need care for the last eight years of their life; this might be help from family, paid carers or a care home.
If people started looking after their own health not smoking/drinking, eating healthily exercising etc this wouldn’t remove the need for care but would reduce it. A reduction from eight years support to say four years support would mean only half as many carers needed.

A national service for older people could definitely be an option, but perhaps means tested. So the poorest older people get care but the richest would have to fund themselves.

So you propose we keep these countries uneducated?? That sounds incredibly exploitative. As soon as these countries are educated (or more honestly as soon as women are educated) birth rate will drop

I didn't say having a top heavy population would be pretty. I don't see any palatable options, I can't see euthanasia being on option many would choose. I think lots of elderly and disabled people will basically go without care. Perhaps others have suggestions? Realistic ones only please.

Maybe we need to ‘enslave’ the late middle aged instead.
All of us who want to retire early can do a year or two compulsory national service doing care in nursing homes first.

And two years national service would be more appropriate- 5 is too long!

Not really. It just shifts the window. So if the population generally needed care between 76-84, then death, in a healthier population it would be - care 84-90, then death

I wonder whether we’ll reset economically at some point?

At the moment it needs two full time workers to keep a family- and that may not cover the mortgage unless there’s been family investment already.

I thought we’d be passing money down , skipping a generation, but that’s unlikely given care costs.

Are we going to be made poor by NHS and social care forever, or will the balance shift as the population drops?

No mention of killing people off or removing care either though was there?

It is a fact that our aging population is a burden is it not? But also that over population is a concern. Hence, we need less children, but we need even less old people. Very simple math. Its horrible when people die, but we are going to run ourselves into disaster through our fear of saying goodbye. Animals are supposed to die, we are very arrogant to think that the rules of nature shouldn't apply to us.

I agree.
So the previous argument was that over 80s shouldn’t get any medical care unless paying for it? Even though they’ve most likely worked for 40+ years, paying taxes all the while & taking not a penny from the state in benefits?

Can only hope some of the posters on this thread never get old & need any sort of help if they do.
It’s all beginning to smack of final solution. Frankly I’m disgusted at some of the attitudes.

The frightening thing is in some areas it’s not going to happen in the future it’s happening now. In my area we have a far higher number of elderly than young people, waiting lists for care at home are 18 months - 2 years and yet another residential home is about to close for reasons I have no clue, many move here for the free personal care but there is no carers to provide it! Community nurses are plugging the gaps which is unsustainable. I think robots will be the answer in the long run, robots to get people up, washed, dressed, meds and those who are carers currently could provide human contact at each visit

I am going to get an advance directive in place also as I do not want treatment should I get dementia e.g. antibiotics for every illness. Or if my quality of life declines to the point I cannot care for myself or live my life as I had, I don’t want every medicine going just to keep me alive when I become a burden on others. I don’t want chemo or operations if I get cancer at 70 odd etc unless it is curative, I don’t want kept alive if I have a severe stroke kept alive by tube feeding not being able to move

No one is suggesting running around bumping people off and dramatic accusations of ‘disgusting!’, really don’t solve the issue- which is that we can’t sustain our current way of life.

Something needs to shift. Probably our own expectations that everything can be cured. My relatives are back and forth to the GP and hospital about things that are clearly not fixable. They are at a point of decline and need to adjust their expectations of themselves.
I look at DM and it’s like she’s an 40yr old, asking the GP for something to make her better because she can’t go clubbing all night and manage work the next day. Stop clubbing on a school night!

Over 200 replies and not one person has said they want to be kept alive as long as possible with medical intervention.

@pickledandpuzzled absolutely, a big problem is that people cannot seem to accept that death is part of life. I am very pragmatic after years of working in healthcare and seeing how we keep some people alive, there are fates worse than death

It is a fact that our aging population is a burden is it not?

Is it? this would be the same ageing population that once it's retired is expected to step with childcare regardless of declining energy levels and having already done its childrearing, would it?

So you think it was OK to keep giving my grandfather medical treatment to postpone his death after his stroke when he couldn't even sit up in bed any more, had to be fed, was in nappies, couldn't read a book, was bored out of his mind, and only getting worse? I don't.

He was definitely at the "if DCat was in this state, I'd be prosecuted for animal cruelty if I didn't euthanise him" stage and he couldn't do anything about it, and all we could do was watch.

DM wants every last minute. DMiL wants DFiL to recover his youth and get out there again. She’s getting really cross with him because he’s happy dozing in his chair, poor ol’ bugger.
DMiL is back and forth wanting the body of a 30yr old, rather than someone in their 80s with a lifetime of complex health needs.

You are quote-mining here. Give it a rest.

Over 200 replies and not one person has said they want to be kept alive as long as possible with medical intervention

Sorry, is that a condition of having an opinion and posting on the thread? what sort of medical intervention are you talking about? because over 60 most of us are going to be having more medical attention that we did when we were younger.

From 41st birthday onwards a yearly, or two-yearly, Standard Attainment Test - anyone not reaching the threshold is given a 'special' cup of tea and 'special biscuit' as a reward for taking the test. The special beverage will ensure you drift off quietly 'into the night'. Otherwise healthy bodies could be chopped up and put into pies and the remaining family gets free pies for 3 months.

Or, families could be rewarded for encouraging older relatives to be convinced they should demand assisted dying.

Old people, tut, how very dare they continue to breathe?

I am a middle aged disabled person who has been in the past saved by the NHS, as I head into old age I might need specialist care when do I decide to give up and die ? You are advocating elderly and now disabled just give up and not be a burden.

Say please, nicely, then.

It’s part of the individualism we’ve promoted. Young and old wanting the world to work around them, though in different ways. No one keen on recognising they are a small part of a massive system, and will need to compromise accordingly.

Might help if people thought about their aging before it happens and take some personal responsibility.

We moved MIL away and out of her family home into sheltered, but independent living accommodation near us. Best option for all. She has company, social events and just in case alarm cords in her flat and a warden onsite. It most definitely gives her perhaps all the rest of her existence independent-ish living. It was the best option for the whole family.

So perhaps people need to think about aging before fragility sets in and it becomes impossible to implement something which might help.

The state is not going to be able to cover everyone's needs. In most cases it will be either family or money which gets you through any care you might need.

And no not everyone has family or money (most have at least one) just like not every child has a home they can study in. But you have to.look at the general not individual.

You, yourself or with your family need to make decisions about your twilight years whilst you can.