Can we talk about ageing populations?

[Kendodd]

Birth rates around the world are collapsing. South Korea has the lowest birth rate at about 0.7. That means for every 100 people, 35 children will be born. There are predicted to be more people over 65 than under very soon. Many countries are predicted to see their populations half be 2100. While I think this is great for the planet and wouldn't want to change things, it will present problems.

What to do?

There's already a crisis of recruitment in care. Throwing more money at it won't work, we need people to do other jobs as well. Limiting care/health care to the elderly, I can't see how that would work either. Also, most of these countries are democracies, the elderly would be the most powerful voting block.

Anyone any ideas?

Having children needs to be made more attractive. Childcare is prohibitively expensive for many and although many jobs claim to be flexible, they’re really not. It’s often women who suffer in the work place and end up sacrificing their careers or work part-time because of the cost of childcare and inflexible employment and therefore end up earning less while the man continues to progress and earns well. This was even commented on by a year 8 boy in a lesson yesterday! Many women don’t want to be in this situation anymore so have fewer or no children. This is happening all over the developed world and cannot be fixed by immigration alone.

I think it’s entirely realistic and reasonable. Old age is rapidly looming on the horizon for me and I only want to be here as long as I have reasonable quality of life. My mum had dementia and would have been devastated to know how she’d end up. I had to be very assertive to stop the endless prescriptions for antibiotics.

No it isn’t. We need to do more to support our young people to help them get a decent education, rebuild industry in the Uk to create more job opportunities and enable them to feel like they can financially support a family of their own. Migrants will age just like everyone else. The way some of these comments are going make me feel like eventually we will all be put on a path to ‘assisted dying’ once we get to a certain age whether we like it or not!

Totally and utterly agree. I don't have children because the world is overpopulated and I refuse to get involved in the human ponzi scheme.

I need to do my bit then. When I am no longer a service to society and I'm being kept alive for far longer than I should be I'd prefer to do my bit and pop off thanks.

That should stop the plaintiff cries of 'who will care for you when you are older and pay taxes to keep you????!!!'

That’s your opinion though. I know plenty of people who feel the same way as me. Look at what’s happened in Canada.

How will that help the care crisis? That can only be solved by immigration.

agree 100%!
I’m currently saving up the funds to see a solicitor to get what I want documented, not just DNR but euthanasia if at a point of not recognising loved ones, doubly incontinent etc. I’m aware at the minute this will make no difference but hopefully in the future if the law is changed my wishes have been noted whilst I’m still compis mentus.

Agree with @fourelementary My Mother lived till she was 94, she had a decent enough life till she was around 85. The last 5 years were a disgrace, she was on a huge amount of meds and in pain. A relative moved in and cared for her 24/7 plus she had nursing staff come in. She had actually said to me when she was a lot younger that she didn’t want to end up bed ridden and would rather die. That woman suffered. I also know a man in his nineties who really still has a decent quality of life. My neighbour, I bump in to him on the way to the local shop. Only ghe very strongest lived to such great ages in the past.

@passthepenguin what is DISGUSTING about @fourelementary s perfectly reasonable statement? Notice most people are in agreement here?

If you notice it’s countries that are more developed and where women have more rights that have falling populations in the main. There will be a large blip where there are lots of old people then it will readjust. I like a world where women can make some choices to have the amount of children they want, if they want them at all.

Exactly. You don't address the problem of too many old people with a load of young people who will errrr get old. That's a human ponzi scheme.

We need less fucking people.

This, what age would that pp think is an appropriate age to cut off care ?

@fourelementary has it spot on.

Should we stop treating cancer too?
Which disabilities should have treatment withheld and at what age?
Should babies born with disabilities or too early be left to die

I think there's two things at play.

There are too many of us, we need to reduce numbers, many people are aware of that, contraception, the desire to give children good lives aswell is reducing our desire to procreate. Big poor families are less desirable than small comfortable families.

And we are keeping people alive far too long. People are spending longer and longer as a burden to society than as contributer.

We need less children but even less old people.

Ah its our weekly ageist post it took me a minute!

I think for me it's about consent and choice.

So if a cancer patient is terminal and decides the pain is too much and quality of life is too low and wants to go then yes they get that choice.

If someone is disabled physically and their life is not happy and they go through psychiatric checks and still decide to go then yes they get that choice.

If they are mentally unable to make a rational choice then no or more discussion needed.

Babies - well no, they can't choose so we do all we can.

I was recently diagnosed with a degenerative disease and saw a community nurse yesterday who talked me through the implications and the interventions the nhs will put in place for me over the next decade or so. It was deeply upsetting and I am very upset. However, I am much more upset to hear that it would much better suit the posters on this thread if I would just kindly fuck off and die, and thus reduce the surplus population. You are all fucking heartless.

I don't want care and a nursing home, I want euthanasia when I choose. At the moment elderly and sick people are not allowed to die when they choose and are kept alive artificially for years.
I've worked in the health service for 43 years and have seen it all and I do not want to be kept alive past by sell by date. I already have a do not resuscitate order and I'm 62 and still work full time.
There is still this pretence of fantastic end of life care. It doesn't happen and I don't want it. I want to die when I choose surrounded by my cats and loved ones.

At the moment it’s extremely expensive and risky to have children.

Women risk their career and their health.

Each child is phenomenally expensive in terms of lost earnings and the cost of childcare.
Women’s health is massively at risk every time. Most women don’t have massive injuries but most have some- my body certainly didn’t fully recover. It is less fit than it was pre children.

A child with disabilities keeps a family in poverty- someone has to reduce hours to manage their care.

The financial impact is shared fairly evenly between men and women, the career impact less so, and obviously health is entirely on women.

Until that is recognised and compensated for, people won’t risk it. I see a load of happy affluent families with single children. Why would they have two?

Our current blip of older people will keep us in need of health care workers until they inevitably pass. Then we’ll be just generally fewer, and presumably able to sustain a stable population more easily- but only if we support childbearing and rearing which we currently don’t.

@ArbitraryHaddock
at no point have I said that anyone else should be subjected to anything against their wishes. As above PPs have said it should all be about personal choice…

Agree entirely

With the caveat that of course, it needs to be the person’s own wish to have treatment withheld and/or assisted to die without suffering. I’m sure the poster meant this.

If these things were made legal, people could be encouraged to make living wills to cover what they want to happen if they are too mentally or physically incapacitated in the future to make their wishes clear. This applies to anyone, not just the elderly.

I would like to make a living will of this sort myself except that the solution I would want in certain situations (ie assisted dying) is not currently legal.

Of course, it should be just as valid to say you want all the treatment and to live as long as possible.

I worked as a carer during the pandemic. Absolutely loved it. My favourite job to date. However:

I’d get Mr Smith out of bed and ready for the day at 7am. I’d have a 30 minute slot but realistically it would take 45 minutes. Mrs Green slot began at 8:10 for another 30minute slot. Mr. Patel at 9am for his slot but there was traffic therefore I didn’t leave his house until 10. As you only get paid for each allocated slot (no commuting time either), that was three hours work but only paid for 1.5hours. I was classed as a ‘part timer’ as I only did Breakfast, Lunch and Dinners (7am until 7pm) and was paid accordingly.

If I had made a wage I could survive on I would still be a carer as I bloody loved it (and I think I was fairly good at it too!)

Your comment is absolutely DISGUSTING and confirms everything I suspected about those who are pushing assisted dying. Not only is it callous, it’s ageist as well.

I disagree. If I got dementia at 43 I'd want to die when I got to the point I didn't know who anyone was and couldn't look after myself. Same at 80, 35 or 100.

I think euthanasia is wrong. Consent isn’t quite enough to justify it in my view. There are some things that as society we consider so harmful that we cannot tolerate it even if consent is present. The deliberate taking of a life must be one of those things.

In any case, euthanasia is either right or wrong, an ageing population doesn’t come into it. An ageing population is an economic problem, not a moral one. Immigration also doesn’t solve this problem, it just forever pushes it into the future, while creating new problems like overpopulation.

I think we need to make the political and economic conditions more attractive to have children. Decent paid work. Secure housing. Stop the guilt-tripping climate nonsense.