Can we talk about ageing populations?

[Kendodd]

Birth rates around the world are collapsing. South Korea has the lowest birth rate at about 0.7. That means for every 100 people, 35 children will be born. There are predicted to be more people over 65 than under very soon. Many countries are predicted to see their populations half be 2100. While I think this is great for the planet and wouldn't want to change things, it will present problems.

What to do?

There's already a crisis of recruitment in care. Throwing more money at it won't work, we need people to do other jobs as well. Limiting care/health care to the elderly, I can't see how that would work either. Also, most of these countries are democracies, the elderly would be the most powerful voting block.

Anyone any ideas?

I suppose you mean more people (more than likely women) will have to step in and care for their relatives when they already have full time jobs and often still their own children to care for.
From next month Carer's Allowance will go up to £81.90pw and you can only earn a maximum of £139pw after tax. Who can live on that money. The carer will get NI credits towards a state pension but their won't be paying much/if anything into an additional pension. Women already take a hit to their careers and pensions when they have children and will be penalised again if they become FT carers.

I agree that the frail and elderly don't seem to be able to pass away with dignity anymore. The NHS seems hellbent on keeping them going at all costs. Back in the late 60s when my great granny became unwell in her 80s, the doctor came (yes it did used to happen!!)
and advised to make her comfortable and let nature take its course. She passed away a few days later. No spending years medicated in a nursing home. Just a natural and peaceful passing.
I dread to think what would have happened by today's standards

If we going down euthanasia route - I want iron clad preventions from any coercions and rights of patients and family to actually be taken into account. At moment people use emotive arguments and denials such situations happen. It terrifying tyring to argue for your relatives need to get treatment when they desperately want to live

I've been reading a collection of talks and articles by the late Terry Pratchett, who was in favour of assisted dying. He suggested an independent tribunal to assess requests for it, led by coroners, to make sure that requests are in good faith and made by the person themselves and not under coercion; which happen and will happen, whatever people say.

I'm very dubious when people glibly say 'oh, there will be safeguards.' Wait until the next emergency turns up - a pandemic, a bad flu season and pressure on hospital beds - and see how long those 'safeguards' survive.

Obviously it would be up to a couple to decide who does the caring. And people will likely have to be realistic that it may not be possible to both work full time if they need to care for relatives, the same as they do if they need to care for disabled children. many carers do not just live off carers allowance, they claim other means tested benefits alongside this. We, as a country will have a lot more financial problems if a lot more people have to leave work to become carers though. We already don't have enough people working to pay for social care and welfare. It is a massive worry for the future.

There went any credibility that poster had. 'Enslave the young' - how, exactly? threaten not to leave them any money unless they do a mandatory stint in a care home?

I've been reading a collection of talks and articles by the late Terry Pratchett, who was in favour of assisted dying. He suggested an independent tribunal to assess requests for it, led by coroners, to make sure that requests are in good faith and made by the person themselves and not under coercion; which happen and will happen, whatever people say.

That's why I have an issue with euthanasia- I can accept there are cases where it's humane and a rational choice - but the glib coercion won't happen responses worry the hell out of me.

I can see any system will have potential problems but some form of formal public process and application would minimise those - so yes independent tribunal sounds like a decent plan.

This article a few years old but UK isn't in worst position but other countries face jaw dropping declines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53409521

Yes, compulsory national service doing care work. Many countries already have compulsory military national service, why is this such a stretch?

@Babyroobs
A couple may be able to decide if one of them can stop or reduce work to care for a relative but what about the very many single parents? How will they manage financially- they already find it more difficult than couples.
Also many carers will be only children in the future as families get smaller.
All in all most families are finding the COL crisis difficult and will find it difficult to deal with a cut in income.
The 2021 Census estimated that there were 5m unpaid carers in the UK.

So you want some random 18 year old who doesn't want to be there be forced to look after your aging relative I mean obviously if the are under 80 because after that they need to pop their clogs

Because the vast majority of people never need care. And if we did we wouldn’t want it provided by a sullen teenager under duress, the number of people who would vote for it would be miniscule. Better by far to regulate the care industry so it has minimum standards and a pay scale in line with the lower grades of the NHS.

Agreed. It's just realistic

I would like to have the option of euthanasia, when being alive becomes chronically uncomfortable/painful.

So then what would be the problem? do you call that 'enslavement'?

enslave the young? Do you honestly believe older people and disabled people would vote to "enslave" unwilling young carers? You're having a laugh! Do you have any idea how much power and pain and misery can be wielded by a malicious angry carer?
Your problem will solve itself as the old and disabled choose defenestration as the lesser evil than the ministrations of your army of enslaved youth!

The grey vote as you call them, might well vote for carers to be treated fairly and paid properly mind!

We don't need to kill off the elderly and disabled or enslave the young to care for them! Governments may need to look at solutions that aren't about making money for share holders from many forms of care.

This. We need more immigration at some point. But we also need services to be expanded to cope with the expanded population numbers due to immigration in the mean time.

Exactly. I can't see anyone on here volunteering to be a carer. They just expect other people to do it.

Unsurprisingly, other people don't want to clean other people's poo either.

With the caveat that of course, it needs to be the person’s own wish to have treatment withheld and/or assisted to die without suffering. I’m sure the poster meant this.

But how do you think this would work in practice? Look at the example of a c-section, which is meant to be a choice. Yet many many women speak of being coerced into natural birth.

I'd imagine similar happening with ageing people. 'It's best for you, look at all of the horrible things that can happen if you don't agree to refusing medical assistance, you can refuse but you must first undergo counselling and get them to sign you off as fit to decide...' etc etc.

That's the potential reality of people making that 'choice'.

When the person that is dying either says enough or when someone is like my late father, antibiotics for chest infections became a permanent fixture, yes they eased his breathing ( never cleared the infection) but within 8 hours of taking the last of the course he needed to start a new course, it was too much for him and there was no point in more antibiotics, it was best to just stop. Relatives need to accept that death is the best thing for their loved one.
When someone will never leave a bed or when someone is in agony and will always be that way. There is no quality of life there just suffering.

Given where we’re going with Ai and automation more likely the latter over time

People want/demand the right to die. Who do they think should do the deed I wonder? If you feel like this then you need to make a plan and do the deed yourself at some point. That's your answer; it's what I hope to do if necessary.

A DIY job will be far more traumatic for those picking up the pieces (sometimes literally), and many people wouldn't want to do that, unless they'd been able to stockpile the means to pass peacefully ie morphine or similar.

"Governments need to look for solutions".

Sometimes there aren't any palatable solutions. Government aren't miracle workers.

Why don't you come up with a solution that does not involved millions of young people caring for millions of old people?

Yes, it really isn't difficult.

I want to die when I have had enough of life.

I have had the most wonderful life so far but when I have had enough then I want to be able to die a peaceful death.

@Saymyname28 is saying it. They said this:

And we are keeping people alive far too long. People are spending longer and longer as a burden to society than as contributer.

and this

We need less children but even less old people.

No mention of consent or choice there. Horrendous.

The actual words were: Governments may need to look at solutions that aren't about making money for share holders from many forms of care.

BTW there demographics other than the young and the old! I've had a small amount of experience with AI care. It was in it's infancy, but good.

Local authority finances are already crumbling under the costs of adult social care so if the cost of carers rises hugely they will need to address this.