Can we talk about ageing populations?

[Kendodd]

Birth rates around the world are collapsing. South Korea has the lowest birth rate at about 0.7. That means for every 100 people, 35 children will be born. There are predicted to be more people over 65 than under very soon. Many countries are predicted to see their populations half be 2100. While I think this is great for the planet and wouldn't want to change things, it will present problems.

What to do?

There's already a crisis of recruitment in care. Throwing more money at it won't work, we need people to do other jobs as well. Limiting care/health care to the elderly, I can't see how that would work either. Also, most of these countries are democracies, the elderly would be the most powerful voting block.

Anyone any ideas?

Yeah, people maybe need to be allowed to agree more solid 'Please just give me palliative care' contracts, perhaps past a certain age or if they are diagnosed with certain conditions. I say 'allowed to', not 'made to' of course!

Also there is the issue of creating more younger population. Personally I reckon pay parents £500 per month per child for at least first 3 years of life, limit it to max two kids at a time if you feel that way. It may sound expensive but it would take starting a family from impossible to possible for huge numbers of people (and no, you wouldn't get masses of people having kids 'just to get the money') and the consequences of not enough working age people would probably be even more expensive.

What's disgusting about it? I have a relative who is in a care home with no quality of life. They are doubly incontinent. Can't speak, can't move independently, have frequent seizures, cant see or hear,can't make anyone aware if they need something, literally a body just lying there being fed and kept clean. There is no life. This will be the case until death. There is no chance of improvement after several years. How exactly is is disgusting to want to allow my relative a peaceful, dignified death.
Don't say people are callous or disgusting or ageist when you know nothing about their circumstances.
If you truly believe your comments then you are the callous disgusting one.

I agree with accept death and also make childcare more accessible and pay more for Maternity Leave. I’d have loved two children, it’s very likely I will just now have the one. My DSis cannot afford to have any at all but would have loved 3- due to her husband being disabled and her work not paying well. They simply can’t afford maternity leave.

Have you tried getting her taken on by a palliative care team? We did this with a very frail relative, and it completely shifts the goal posts from keeping the patient alive to helping the patient have a good death.

Stop allowing them to give him antibiotics! Who has power of attorney?
I’ve been told this by a doctor friend who told me to refuse antibiotics if I get dementia.

I don't think you understand how drastically the global birth rate is dropping and just how hard that will be to stabilise now. Or the miserable consequences of a poorly managed decrease in population.

This. I was crystal clear with my mum’s GP that no more antibiotics were to be prescribed.

You won’t be able to refuse them if you get dementia @Mishmaj. You need to have a clear forward directive on your medical notes well in advance.

And what about all the health conditions that can affect younger people, that can destroy their quality of life? Do you want to allow them to actually die instead of fighting to keep them alive, or is it only applicable to pesky older people?

I give you three guesses. It won't affect the young people because 'well, we always hope that in a few years we'll have a cure for their condition.' Just the pesky boomers sitting on all those 'inheritances.'

Once someone is over 80, they should not be given medical interventions unless they want to pay for themselves.

I've seen this before on here, except the cut off date was 70. The people who suggest it never seem to realise that that cutoff will apply to them, as well. And could even be lowered before they reach that age. Not so funny being 65, feeling fine but with a few aches and pains but not able to access healthcare, eh?

Yes we do.

But even if you haven't experienced it yourself, it does not take much imagination, unless you are an MP it seems.

So many MPs are against assisted dying until it directly affects them and then they suddenly get it.

I remember one MP who voted against assisted dying saying that his father blamed him when he was in pain and dying because he had voted against it. Unsuprisingly, this MP is now in favour of assited dying.

Carers allowance is £76.75 per week for a minimum of 35 hours a week care.

Or I am entitled to 4 very expensive rushed visits per day from underpaid (NMW minus travel costs, agency fees, etc etc) overworked agency carers with huge profit to the agency. They are unable to to be reliable time wise and after paper work it gives 20 mins per visit. they say they can't meet needs, so must settle for what can be done rather than what is needed.

Many of the carers are 'questionable' including legality, though all are just women from somewhere trying to survive, but it isn't possible to be working disabled on that system.
LA have refused direct payments so I'm down to a young person who can't get work, desperate enough to take the £76.75pw, who has MH difficulties and has to be re-instructed daily and can be problematic. But without them I can't work so it has to be toughed out for both of us.
Inevitably I 'gift' them a lot, as if I top their wages up to the amount they are allowed to earn on top - £139, I become an employer, illegally underpaying them at half the NMW...

We need to have conversations sensibly about this. Nothing to do with being ageist

No I'm sure it isn't. But just so happens that the elderly and the old are who everybody means when they talk about this; not the incurably ill young or middle aged.

Has the opposite - close family member multiple health conditions old but wanting to hang on - still happy enough till final days though did manage to die at home as they wanted.

7 year ago they were dithering about whether it was worth treating then surprise when infections treated he did well. Manet he got to meet youngest GC and have a relationship with them - those years and months meant world to my family and meant huge financial difference to remaining spouse.

Agism is rife in some sections of NHS - we've seen some medical staff dismiss patient and family wishes and in end only reluctantly treat.

If we going down euthanasia route - I want iron clad preventions from any coercions and rights of patients and family to actually be taken into account. At moment people use emotive arguments and denials such situations happen. It terrifying tyring to argue for your relatives need to get treatment when they desperately want to live.

People want/demand the right to die. Who do they think should do the deed I wonder? If you feel like this then you need to make a plan and do the deed yourself at some point. That's your answer; it's what I hope to do if necessary.

I was posting about my DF - my DM has power of attorney and has been deep in denial about the situation for the past 10 years. It has been and still is extremely difficult to talk about this with her - and the bloody Memory Nurse made everything much more difficult by not talking to my DM about the nature and progression of Alzheimers.

Anyway, before I end up ranting for pages!, I contacted the Nursing Home with my concerns and a meeting is being arranged to discuss palliative care and end of life care. The GPs will be involved - they're the ones who keep prescribing antibiotics, as well as nursing home staff and my sis and I will also be there, as we're discovering that DM simply ignores what she's told and makes shit up!

Meantime, I'm drafting an Advance Directive for my own potential future ill-health and inevitable death in the hopes that the latter can be as quick and dignified as possible. And also in hopes that no fucker gives me antibiotics to stop me shuffling off this mortal coil if I have dementia.

Yeah, people maybe need to be allowed to agree more solid 'Please just give me palliative care' contracts, perhaps past a certain age or if they are diagnosed with certain conditions. I say 'allowed to', not 'made to' of course

This needs to be part of the please do not resuscitate wish.
Obviously you should be able to change your mind at any point.

I agree, families need that conversation about dying and deth together with other essential end of life decisions like power of eternity and funeral arrangements.

(DH just went through similar with his parents, I am also fully aware of my parents wishes - but my family members work in the medical profession, so it's not as alien to us as for others.)

Ultimately, it will not really change the fact that we have an aging population

I'd far rather see heavy investment in palliative care than legalised euthanasia.

Yep.

I'm currently in my mid 50s. Hoping to get to 70 fit and healthy - appreciate that might not happen. Have set myself a "best before" of 75, and plan on ending things myself while still able to.

With an aunt who died at 60 weeks after a diagnosis of cancer, and a father who has gone steadily and distressingly downhill for the decade since his 80th birthday, if given the choice between those two life-ending scenarios, I'd prefer to go like my aunt.

Yes - I would too.

@Bagpussrules and @SpringSprungALeak for agreeing with them, Thank you for your comments. You have hit the nail on the head with the timing of it all. I do think quality of life is something that should be decided by the person whose life it is but am constantly told others views are more important.

I and others are struggling with if we really have much right to be here anymore because we are constantly being made to feel that we are an unacceptable burden, costing too much, in the way of everyone, and using resources that would be better allocated to others. The older I get, the less value is ascribed to my continued existence.

On that note am off to work while I still can!

It's very easy to talk about limiting care for the elderly when you're not elderly yourself.

I think many posters completely have there heads in the sand with this. Just arguing for more carers/better quality care etc. Who is going to provide this? Does everyone in every other industry give up their job and become carers?
I also pointed out in my op that most of these countries are democracies. The grey vote will be by far the biggest. I fear we may vote to basically enslave the young. Five years compulsory national service working in care or something.

Yes I agree but if there is no-one to look after the older folk this may have to change again and there will be some hard decisions to make.

Yes I completely agree but what is the alternative if there is a worldwide shortage of carers ? Either you pay whatever it costs if you can , or your family will have to move closer ( or you closer to them ), or give up their jobs to care, or you manage with no care and risk your life being shortened through neglect.

This is disgracefully ageist. Older people voting to 'enslave the young'. You don't know how older people think. Shocking.

Where does this end OP? Would you say treatment should be withheld if someone of any age has a terminal disease and may require care? Or is it just the elderly you think aren't worthwhile?