Can we talk about ageing populations?

[Kendodd]

Birth rates around the world are collapsing. South Korea has the lowest birth rate at about 0.7. That means for every 100 people, 35 children will be born. There are predicted to be more people over 65 than under very soon. Many countries are predicted to see their populations half be 2100. While I think this is great for the planet and wouldn't want to change things, it will present problems.

What to do?

There's already a crisis of recruitment in care. Throwing more money at it won't work, we need people to do other jobs as well. Limiting care/health care to the elderly, I can't see how that would work either. Also, most of these countries are democracies, the elderly would be the most powerful voting block.

Anyone any ideas?

@Elleherd has nailed it.

This is a good point.

I don't agree with assisted dying for scenarios like this.

What I do agree with is letting nature take its course in some cases. Like our own situation with our family member who has end stage vascular dementia. They have kidney failure and doctors have decided to treat her. We as a family are awaiting a meeting to talk to the doctors about this. It's cruel. She's in pain, she's stopped eating, she sleeps 99% of the time and the time she is awake she's shrieking in pain and fear. We just want her to be kept comfortable and cared for until her life ends naturally. Not dragged out with more medical intervention

We''ll continue to have high immigration - so we slump not walk off cliff in this country.

We'll be expected to work longer.

We'll have higher taxes and lower services - politicians will try and push elder care more onto families.

Life expectancy may fall - or new drugs may increase it -but privatisation and insurance as NHS gets reformed will affect treatment availability and link it to money increasing health inequalities.

I think euthanasia laws will be passed - and some will gladly use them to avoid prolonged or poverty ridden final years but also in time there will start to be social and economic pressure on older people who may be happy and feel they have some quality of life left to use them - certainly encountered some worrying ageists attitudes in NHS to older family members already.

For UK we should keep an eye on Japan, S Korea Italy and Germany - see what policies helps manage situation.

What everyone can do is add a paragraph to their Health and Welfare Power of Attorney, to say that in certain circs they explicitly do not want any life-saving, or life-prolonging treatment.

Dh’s and my circs include dementia, or any other condition where we are unable both to care for ourselves, and speak, with full mental capacity, for ourselves.

Except we do frequently: when it costs too much to treat them, when there isn't anywhere to put them, when they don't already have a home, when they're the wrong type of dog, or just plain unwanted and there are too many like them piling up.

Everyone is perfectly able to end their lives now as things stand, and many do.

I do actually think there should be some route for those who want it who don't have the ability to find ways to do it comfortably.

But do people understand that the services of Dignitas etc is literally just being provided with barbiturates dissolved in water or juice and committing suicide in front of a camera for evidence?

Did the drs not consult you? From all I’ve ever read or heard, it’s often the relatives who insist on keeping someone going regardless of quality of life, and get very angry/upset, if anyone suggests that it would be kinder to let the person go.
You need to be very clear about what you want for your relative! Drs are understandably very wary of Daily Mail headlines, e.g. ‘Callous docs wanted to let Mum die!’

No. There are always going to be people who have children. The world is overpopulated and so a decrease in the population is a good thing anyway. Plus populations are still expanding in some parts of the world.

@pickledandpuzzled I am now mid 30s in my friendship group from school out of 6, 3 of us have children I am the only one currently pregnant with a 2nd. The ones who already have children are putting off a 2nd because of nursery costs.

We all have reasonably good jobs etc so should be able to afford to have 2 children

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER no we weren't informed at all. We have a meeting very soon hopefully tomorrow morning to discuss it

No flaming from me! Happy for anyone to be a SAHP if they're able. Yes there are issues with it, but most are sortable. Society has been regulated and organized into a system that ensures a lack of choices if the alternative could be to charge the hell out of what ever was once being done for free or cheap.
I was never a SAHM, but I provided care for ageing PIL and I and many others shared out child care etc so we could all earn and carry on. Such things are now frowned upon and seen as tax avoidance by receiving benefit in kind.

They don't say I quit, there has to be reasons.

I watched my 33 year old sister die of cancer. The last week she was not conscious and we can only hope that she wasn't in pain, but I'm not entirely sure. Her 2 children, husband and family but most importantly she should have been spared that. It's not just for the elderly

Ah yes, I forgot, I always see the staff in the nhs looking down the price list and saying nope- not today.

They withdraw treatment if its deemed not to be effective or cause the patient suffering.

This is exactly the issue. Both care for the elderly (be it at home or in residential homes) and childcare are massively over priced in this country, while those doing the care are paid poorly and unfairly. The industries need regulation in what they can charge.

And those caring for relatives need more help. You’re only allowed to be paid about £90 if you’re a carer or you can’t claim carer’s allowance- which is also about £90. Yet the same government will pay a care home much more to look after an elderly person. It doesn’t make sense.

I agree with this so much. I've seen far too many people existing way beyond the point where they had any quality of life thanks to modern medicine. It's barbaric.

AI will alter the workforce it might soften the impact

Otherwise you could have vast unemployment when it picks up

Totally agree with this.

We need to prioritise young people. Once someone is over 80, they should not be given medical interventions unless they want to pay for themselves.

We have too many old people (I will be one very soon) and we need to stop keeping them alive with no quality of life.

Well, if I were Kylie, I would be only too happy to go on a nice long holiday.

If I am tired and fed up of life, why shouldn't I? It would help my loved ones too.

What is the downside?

looking at some responses…clearly some people have never experienced a loved one be a shell of themselves and the loved one wishing they were dead, confused and in pain. Well I have and it’s disgusting. We need to have conversations sensibly about this. Nothing to do with being ageist.

Once someone is over 80, they should not be given medical interventions unless they want to pay for themselves.

That’s too extreme. There are plenty of people in their 80s living independent fulfilling lives with the support of medication to keep them healthy. What we really need to change is keeping people alive when their quality of life has gone. Basing that decision on age alone is very dystopian.

I know OP! Give everyone a one way ticket to Switzerland on their 65th birthday.

Euthanasia – that sounds good,
An Alpine neutral neighbourhood,
Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood,
Things are gonna get worse.

(John Cooper Clarke).

There's plenty of people who would love the chance to move to western countries legally without risking their lives with smugglers. Legal migration is the answer, whether that is politically palatable is a different matter entirely

The difference between being disabled and being really old is that a disabled person's condition can often be managed to give them decades of decent quality of life, including having a job with sufficient support

I suspected that this argument would be advanced right from the first post - and what the OP was getting at but was just too coy to say out loud. So let's face it, what we're talking about here is one demographic. As usual.

I agreed wholeheartedly with the original comment but not with your response. Just because someone is over 80 doesn't mean they should be written off, or they are not a contributing member of society. I know plenty of over 80s who are still in good health, do volunteer work etc. A former neighbour of mine had some heart treatment (stents etc) in his early 80s but apart from that was in pretty decent health and doing loads of really valuable volunteer work for a local sports club. Another chap, a family friend, was driving a minibus well into his late 80s for a local charity that organised lunches for elderly people to give them a means of social contact (which he also helped organise). He needed a bit of medical treatment here and there but recovered very well from it all and continued to work tirelessly for his community right up until his health finally took a turn for the worse and he died quite soon after.

You can't impose a blanket ban on interventions past 80 - it doesn't automatically mean poor quality of life.

People need to become more realistic about old age and Drs need to stop prescribing medication and treating conditions that are part and parcel of old age and allow people to actually die instead of fighting to keep them alive in disgusting cruel circumstances for an extra few years of life. Or in pain and confusion. Just because we CAN medicate and treat doesn’t mean we SHOULD.
I would support assisted dying for sure as well

And what about all the health conditions that can affect younger people, that can destroy their quality of life? Do you want to allow them to actually die instead of fighting to keep them alive, or is it only applicable to pesky older people?

I (with some reservations) support assisted dying, but it should be individual choice. If some people want to fight to the very end, that's their choice. If some people want to take an early exit, that's their choice. Age should not come into it.