Would you attend church to get a school place?

[Werehalfwaythere]

Sorry for the long content - feel free to just answer the title question!

We live in an area with the grammar school system, and as such, secondary schooling is a bit of a nightmare.

My child is only in Year 1 but I've also come to realise that where we live isn't particularly close to any grammar schools. We live in one of the 'priority parishes' for one school (this means we'd get a place over someone who doesn't live in the long list of parishes) but it's a train ride away and I'm not interested in that for my children as the town it's in isn't nice, especially after dark.

There's a comp on our doorstep that we'd get into. Known to be good in terms of experience but the academic performance is lacking and my child seems to be pretty academic from what we can tell so far so I'd like them to attend a school that offers them enough academic challenge.

Anyway, there's a comprehensive 4 miles away that gets great results, which is sadly rare in this area, given the grammar divide. The only issue is it's often way oversubscribed for this reason and also it's a church school, meaning they offer 50% of their places to church goers before the remaining places go to other kids based on address. This means we'd be unlikely to get in. (I've checked the policy and this is correct).

I'm not anti church. I'm atheist and always will be but have always liked the church community vibe, just not the Jesus stuff tbh. The communities close to us are all older people and generally very friendly and proactive with food banks, fundraising, playgroups etc. I'm friends with a few of them already through various community activities but have never considered joining the church.

To get into the good comprehensive, at least one adult in the family needs to be an active church member for at least 2 years. So if I join when my child is in year 2/3, I should be covered.

Is this amoral? I'm assuming there are other non-believers who attend church for other reasons (community etc)? Im aware this will involve attending services fortnightly as the admission criteria states.

Would you in this situation?

Not necessarily, as the school gives 50% of places to non-churchgoers.

There are 12 comps in our local authority. I'd happily send our DC to 8 of them.

Honestly? I'd take the school on the doorstep. Your dc will get longer each day at home, which gives more time for homework after school. They can get themselves there and back, no issues with getting to & from sports clubs and after-school activities, their school friends will live nearby, and there's no guarantee that this brilliant church school will still be as brilliant in 5 years' time anyway.

We're a Catholic family and our child attends a Catholic school. However I do disagree with going to church just to get your child into a school. As pp have said, church schools have a high emphasis on religious study throughout every aspect of your child's education. In Catholic schools children focus on preparation for First holy communion and Confirmation, and I'm unsure how a child who is not from that particular background would manage in that situation as they wouldn't be able to participate if they weren't Catholic. Although I couldn't comment on other Christian schools, perhaps they are different.

If you live in Kent OP, I definitely would, as most of the non grammar options are pretty dire. Can't speak for other counties though.

(If you do live in Kent, I bet I know which school you're talking about too)

@Flamme it's not just about going to church to get them in, it's the continuation of religious messages when they're at the school.

Re your other point, I feel I have a duty as a parent to instil good values and a sense of fairness and justice. I can't do that if I'm compromising those principles.
So that rules out selective schools like grammar and fee paying schools too.

I think that sending your kid to a school that practises stuff you don't believe, all the while telling them not to believe it - essentially saying do what I say not what I do - is ridiculous. I also think that it benefits kids to go to a school they can wholeheartedly get on board with (in as much as teens ever do) without having to ingest stuff that their parents are telling them not to believe at the same time.

You can say it works out in practice if you know your kids internal geography well enough, that your kids Catholic school is as woke as you like, but that doesn't take away the central contradiction of being at a school which practises a faith your parents don't believe in. We say it doesn't matter because we're a Christian country so it's sort of familiar. I fail to believe anyone on here would send their kids to a Muslim school if they were not Muslim however hard it told you its values were modern and progressive.

To answer your question OP I don't think it's amoral. The church know some parents do this and they welcome the extra congregation, they are hoping that you genuinely come to like it and continue going. They also want you to join the Parish Giving Scheme because many churches have funding shortfalls.

I did this for school, but I'm agnostic and was attracted to attending a church anyway for the spiritual/community benefits and I've found a really nice one that I continue going to.

I'd avoid modern churches or Grace churches as they are full on and may want to engage you on how deep your beliefs are - go for an old Anglican church which is much more about quiet personal belief & self reflection, it'll be more comfortable for you.

The biggest issue will be commitment. For secondary school you might have to go 3 times a month. My primary school only need 1 attendance per month. Check the church form.

Well.I hope you would also make Grammar schools illegal
As they discriminate too.

Most people go to church to get into a better place eventually. Those wanting that better place to be school are just bringing the timescales forward a bit.

Bullshit, the "bright children thrive anywhere" is absolute bollocks. They're not going to "thrive" if they're bullied mercilessly every day, are surrounded by disruptive pupils, have teachers who can't teach, etc. Some will, but most won't. Just because even the crappest comp get the odd pupil with a string of grade 9 or A* doesn't mean that all the bright ones can achieve that.

Very good.

If you don't believe in God, you may as well go.
If you do believe in God, but it's not your usual church or denomination, you may not want God to know you're gaming the system.

I'm Anglican, some of the best schools in my area are another denomination, that DH used to be. Because we both believe God exists, we can't just turn up to another church for our own gain.

So the irony is, if you believe in God, you can't game it. If you don't believe, go for it, you have everything to gain.

The school doesn't end up with the most religious - perhaps it's indirect outreach?

WWJD?
I think he'd instill in his child a strong work Ethic and he/she would do well wherever.

The fact is that faith schools would have loads of empty places if they only wanted people with genuine faith! They're built and expanded because of demand from everyone, not just people of faith. If they only admitted genuine regular churchgoers, they'd be a lot smaller, or they'd have to expand entry criteria to include non faith people anyway. One of our local ones does exactly that, their points system works through "faith" people, i.e. points for church attendance, points to attending a church primary school, points for being christened, etc., and then they give points for proximity to school (more points for how close you are) and each year they publish the data as to how their intake was made up, and nearly every year, they offer places to people with no "faith" points but who get enough points by proximity. So basically to get in, you EITHER need faith points OR you need to live close to the school. They'd never fill their places if they relied on faith points alone as it's a huge school (each year intake around 300 pupils!). Those living further away have to get faith points to have a chance, those living within a mile or two usually get enough proximity points to get in.

No 2 The s not the reason it's great if families come to church because they are want a school place and later convert and become members of the church community. It's also true that anyone is welcome even if they don't convert. What is wrong is to go to church purely for a school place then leave once you have said place. That's deceitful and takes away a place from a child whose family regularly attend church and for whom an education at a church school is important to them.
If your reasons are for a good education then move house, find a grammar school or pay for private. It's not about other people caring about your beliefs it's about taking a place you are not entitled too. It's no different morally to people who commit address fraud.

Yes I would but I'm a Christian (but I don't attend church very often - I would definitely start attending weekly for a school place)

Do you not enjoy having Sunday mornings where you don't have to get up/dressed by school hours? Or going out somewhere for the morning/day?

There's far more interesting things you and your child could be doing on Sundays rather than trying not to be seen rolling your eyes at the dafter comments and aspects of the service and congregation. Just as some of them would be trying not to roll their eyes at you being yet another family that conveniently finds their God when it's time for the school applications and then promptly forgets all about Him again as soon as the place has been accepted.

Brilliant and so apt! 😁

Yes, this is true. If you truly believe you wont game the system.

There's a very good C of E secondary near us. We are Catholic and I wouldn't/didn't put down the C of E school because it would be dishonest and confusing for the kids.

Look OP, it sounds as if you have read the admissions policies and have your head screwed on. Go ahead and attend.

We all land in a fundamentally unfair school admissions system, whether it is admission by house-price, faith, fees or tutoring. You cannot correct the system by yourself. The only thing you can do is act in the best interests of your child.

The faith school system is an historical anomaly. The people historically owe the Church of England huge gratitude for the role they played in establishing a universal system of education in the country (often originally arising out of Sunday schools) but that time has been and gone. Like faith-founded hospitals, they should now be open to all and have no faith-based priority admissions criteria.

If anyone on this thread (especially those who have been so outspoken against the OP’s plan) wants to constructively protest against faith schools’ admissions policies there are many ways to do it:

Writing to your MP
Joining groups such as the Humanists or the National Secular Society
Taking part in national or local school admissions consultations
Starting your own petition or pressure group

Best wishes, OP.

@DragonFly98

That's deceitful and takes away a place from a child whose family regularly attend church and for whom an education at a church school is important to them.

If that mythical family really do regularly attend church, then they'll have enough faith points to get a place on their own merits, as they're highly likely to have more points than the random family who suddenly start going to church with a view to gaining a place. You get more faith points the more you attend, so to take away the place of a regular attender, you'd have to attend even more regularly!!

Yeah, I never really get that argument…the theoretically more ‘deserving’ other child/family.

The criterion is arbitrary in an unfair system, but the theoretical other child/family would be quite happy to gain the advantage for themselves and deprive OP’s child of a place without giving them any thought at all.

Of course I am not talking about cases where someone has acted fraudulently and has gained a place through dishonesty or deception, but if the OP openly takes action to meet a published criteria then that is fair enough.

Sorry but NO, I would not. Sheer hypocrisy tmm. And let's face it, these days most Christians are cultural only anyhow.

'We are a Christian country and everyone is entitled to attend church even if it is for reasons other than being godly.'

I have to say, I find this incredible.

As a Humanist, I'd go one further and totally support their policy to ban all Church schools, of all denominations.

No, I wouldn't.
If your child is academic they will be fine in the local school you describe.
If you go to church just to get into a church school when you are openly an atheist teaches your child that it's fine to believe one thing and act completely differently if it gets you what you want