Would you attend church to get a school place?

[Werehalfwaythere]

Sorry for the long content - feel free to just answer the title question!

We live in an area with the grammar school system, and as such, secondary schooling is a bit of a nightmare.

My child is only in Year 1 but I've also come to realise that where we live isn't particularly close to any grammar schools. We live in one of the 'priority parishes' for one school (this means we'd get a place over someone who doesn't live in the long list of parishes) but it's a train ride away and I'm not interested in that for my children as the town it's in isn't nice, especially after dark.

There's a comp on our doorstep that we'd get into. Known to be good in terms of experience but the academic performance is lacking and my child seems to be pretty academic from what we can tell so far so I'd like them to attend a school that offers them enough academic challenge.

Anyway, there's a comprehensive 4 miles away that gets great results, which is sadly rare in this area, given the grammar divide. The only issue is it's often way oversubscribed for this reason and also it's a church school, meaning they offer 50% of their places to church goers before the remaining places go to other kids based on address. This means we'd be unlikely to get in. (I've checked the policy and this is correct).

I'm not anti church. I'm atheist and always will be but have always liked the church community vibe, just not the Jesus stuff tbh. The communities close to us are all older people and generally very friendly and proactive with food banks, fundraising, playgroups etc. I'm friends with a few of them already through various community activities but have never considered joining the church.

To get into the good comprehensive, at least one adult in the family needs to be an active church member for at least 2 years. So if I join when my child is in year 2/3, I should be covered.

Is this amoral? I'm assuming there are other non-believers who attend church for other reasons (community etc)? Im aware this will involve attending services fortnightly as the admission criteria states.

Would you in this situation?

Absolutely not.

I'm Catholic and think that if you can regularly attend church for years and participate in the community then fair play to you. Its quite an undertaking but sounds like you might enjoy it. Give you a ready made easy opportunity for doing something charitable from time to time as well.

If you like singing hymns I suggest joining the choir. It makes the service (presumably CofE?) Go quickly and flags you up to the priest as an active member of the church community.

I do have a question about baptism. Do the schools not require this? I suggest once you've been going a while you could ask for your ds to be baptised. Just say you wanted to do it when he was younger but covid put you off. Lots of kids are baptised older.

You don't have to lie about your faith but don't out and out say I'm an atheist. If anyone ever asks (unlikely) Just say you have a lot of questions and you come to church because you are searching for answers. Frankly just say nothing and no one will ever ask.

I really enjoy being part of my church community.

No, I wouldn't.

You can't possibly know what your child is going to be like by secondary age if they're only in year 1 anyway.

I wouldn’t do that but I have moved house with school catchments being the main priority. We live quite rurally so my girls attended lovely small class (15-20 in a class) village school, the head and some of the teachers are former pupils, it’s an amazing school. They then went to secondary and because of where we live they get picked up and dropped off by the school bus everyday. It was definitely a move worth making.

Bright children thrive at any school anyway. My DS goes to the local comprehensive, doing his GCSEs this year and he's predicted brilliant grades and is aiming for a medical degree. I'd have organised private tutoring if necessary rather than all this bullshit about the "best" schools, always seemed ridiculous to me.

I'm sure you have, but just double check their policy. At our local church school, one parent or more needs to have been a member for 2 years, attending fortnightly at least, up to the point of application, not admission. So year 4 would be too late for my school. Check it out before you commit!

When I was an active church goer this sort of thing is actively encouraged. Go to church, you’ll be very welcome

I spent years as a child sitting through mass, so a few years as an adult doing the same would definitely be worth getting my child into a good school.

If your child is only in Year One then don’t assume that the current information you have about each school will still be relevant in 6 years time, if any of the schools has a change of head then things like ofsted rating or reputation of supporting academics etc could change. The good school that you feel is poor for academics may be completely different by the time your child is ready for secondary as could the church school.

We have two very good church schools (primary and secondary) and I know people who went to church to get their children in. You have to sign a register every week to prove you went.

The schools are always "Outstanding" as the parents have gone to the effort of getting their children in so obviously want their children to do well.

I went to church so I could get married in the church I wanted. Again I had to sign a register every time I went.

But you're bolstering congregation numbers and actually it isn't as bad as you'd think.

Thank you! It’s a year for one of the schools at time of admission closing for one and record of baptism and there is no requirement to attend for the other than record of baptism. It might not work out, but I’m going to try. I might end up enjoying it anyway, I’m not adverse to religion just never really been surrounded by it growing up, who knows!

Bright children absolutely do not thrive at any given school. Hear this often. Load of tosh. Quality of teaching, aspiration of cohort, expectations etc are school specific and make all the difference.

I have 2 DC. Older one joined a church choir after an inspirational talk at their school. Spent five years in it. Didn’t go to the well-regarded connected secondary school. Partly because they didn’t qualify at that point, but also their friends were going elsewhere. I took on a safeguarding volunteer role for the choir during that time and went on a fair number of trips/sat in on lots of rehearsals - mainly because they needed the bodies. The choir - which is always in fear of not having enough treble choristers - is open to members of all faiths and none.

Younger one then had the option of also joining the choir in order to go to the school or to go to DC1’s school (where DC1 did very well). They joined and went to the church school - mainly because friends were going and it was a walk rather than a bus to school - and left choir at the end of year 7.

Neither child still goes to the church and neither were converted through their attendance. I occasionally go, still mainly for the music. I have continued to be an agnostic.

However, the church has had eight years of me taking kids to rehearsals several times a week, volunteering for trips. All of us have enjoyed to varying degrees their choir membership and the music that they’ve made. I think it’s been pretty fair, tbh.

So I would warn that it’s a big time commitment, but you may get a lot out of it. Also that church schools are not free from the issues that other schools have - and they are not entirely populated by religious children.

No and we actually moved to go to an area without church schools when it came to applying for primary school.

While I am a strong believer in teaching RS covering all major religions, I don't want a child having weekly/daily prayers and religious assemblies.

My DD came out as bi in Y9 and I did wonder what her experience would have been in the church secondary school one of her nursery friends is going to. In her secondary school there was a strong feminist and LGBTQ ethos which was important to us anyway.

Attending church for me is lying and teaching my child that it's ok to lie to get your way.

Where I am, the good religious schools are Catholic and the Church long ago wised up to this. Most RC schools locally require baptism in the first year of life, at least one practising RC parent and evidence of regular (weekly) church attendance.

It’s still possible to become a Catholic purely to get your child into a RC school, and people do. But they have to start the process early and really commit to it. It’s not a light undertaking.

Maybe C of E schools are more relaxed about it?

I was raised a Catholic and wouldn’t send my child to a RC school, fwiw!

My neighbour tried this, was actively involved with the church and also attended church service weekly for a good 5 years solid prior to applying for a school place. They were astounded when their plan failed.

My username stems from me feeling incensed about the prospect of doing this for dc's primary school. We didn't do it and they thrived at their school.
However for secondary I did attend church twice a month for 2 years, signing the register. We find out in March if dc has a place. It's a similar set up with 50% places for kids whose parents have attended church and 50% community places. They respect all religions and none. The Head is from a non-Christian religion. They teach Christian values but fully expect kids to be from a wide range of families.
For this school there is no "pretending" to be Christian either for the kids or while attending church. The criteria is literally attendance at church. No need to proclaim faith or take communion.
It has given us a potential option for DC that would otherwise not have been possible. The discipline in the school is a world apart from the other local schools. For our dc that was important because they need that structure and find more chaotic environments very stressful and cause anxiety. If that hadn't been the case, I don't know that I would have done the same thing.

No I wouldn't.
Firstly because I wouldn't be willing to buy into the fairy stories to get my kid into a school.

On a wider issue I don't want to contribute to propping up a shitty education system where you can manipulate or buy privilege.

What would Jesus do?

Be aghast at what organised Christianity has done to his core ideas?

Then turn water into wine and get rolling drunk?

What a load of assumption based nonsense. I can say this as I'd have assumed the same years ago.

After being firmly against any religious school at primary entry stage, we've now sent DD to a Catholic secondary school.

We're atheist.

We know staff at the school so I had done my research.

The school has to follow the same PSHE as anywhere, has many LGBT staff and students, students and staff from many cultural and religious backgrounds.

I actually think the values they follow are hugely beneficial. DD doesn't believe in god but does appreciate the messages.

Lucky you

obviously this is not case across the country

Social science was my jam today and not tomorrow until I retired from one of the Russell Group Universities so beloved by MN. Educational attainment was at one point part of my research.

Your child will probably be fine wherever they go because they have invested parents. The biggest indicators are Mother’s educational attainment, economic factors and ethnicity. There will always be outliers and anecdotes.

We sent DS to the local comp, results were dire and enough to give many on MN the heebie jeebies. Our friends were shocked at the time. But we knew our child.

Roll on a few years, after obtaining all grade A at A level he is now on a degree apprenticeship with a guaranteed job at the end earning almost 30k whilst studying and with no student fees as they pay his tuition fees in full. It is far more competitive than going to University. All the children in top set at that dire school that were his friends are doing well.

I met thousands of incredibly clever young people over my career in higher education. Some were truly gifted. You can be as clever as you like but if you can’t communicate then life is much harder. So look to the socialisation side as much as the academic.

DH had to travel for school, he went to a public school that has over the years had some of best results in the entire country. He had no local friends at all as such a long commute. I have many happy memories of DS and a couple of his mates coming round after school and raiding the fridge and playing football in the garden. Think of that aspect as well. There are plenty of years as an adult for long commutes in crappy weather.

Mixed feelings, really. I strongly believe that church schools which are publicly funded should not be allowed to discriminate in this way. However, while they exist and have stupid criteria like this, I don't think it is necessarily morally wrong to play the system they have put in place. In a way, I might take a perverse pleasure in making them give preference to an atheist's child.

Whilst I don't believe in God, I find the concept of religion and why we feel the need for it fascinating, so I don't have a problem with my children being taught about one, nor indeed do I have a problem with them forming their own beliefs. I would however want to encourage them to take a questioning approach to what they are being taught and to make sure they are also informed about other beliefs and why I don't believe.

The thing is if they do go ,surely they would be a Christian and be religious ,If you arent this would maybe seem strange. Its a bit false

To be fair, you don't have to buy into the fairy stories, you just have to pay lip service. Indeed, if it were me I would be tempted to go along with air pods and listen to an audiobook during the dull bits. I know it's cynical, but if that's the system that has been set up, I'm not sure it's wrong to take advantage of it.

I see your point about the education system, but it's not going to change in the foreseeable future and I question whether we have a duty to sacrifice our children to make gestures that no-one is going to notice.