Would you attend church to get a school place?

[Werehalfwaythere]

Sorry for the long content - feel free to just answer the title question!

We live in an area with the grammar school system, and as such, secondary schooling is a bit of a nightmare.

My child is only in Year 1 but I've also come to realise that where we live isn't particularly close to any grammar schools. We live in one of the 'priority parishes' for one school (this means we'd get a place over someone who doesn't live in the long list of parishes) but it's a train ride away and I'm not interested in that for my children as the town it's in isn't nice, especially after dark.

There's a comp on our doorstep that we'd get into. Known to be good in terms of experience but the academic performance is lacking and my child seems to be pretty academic from what we can tell so far so I'd like them to attend a school that offers them enough academic challenge.

Anyway, there's a comprehensive 4 miles away that gets great results, which is sadly rare in this area, given the grammar divide. The only issue is it's often way oversubscribed for this reason and also it's a church school, meaning they offer 50% of their places to church goers before the remaining places go to other kids based on address. This means we'd be unlikely to get in. (I've checked the policy and this is correct).

I'm not anti church. I'm atheist and always will be but have always liked the church community vibe, just not the Jesus stuff tbh. The communities close to us are all older people and generally very friendly and proactive with food banks, fundraising, playgroups etc. I'm friends with a few of them already through various community activities but have never considered joining the church.

To get into the good comprehensive, at least one adult in the family needs to be an active church member for at least 2 years. So if I join when my child is in year 2/3, I should be covered.

Is this amoral? I'm assuming there are other non-believers who attend church for other reasons (community etc)? Im aware this will involve attending services fortnightly as the admission criteria states.

Would you in this situation?

I agree with this. Unless it's a very evangelical/charismatic church with altar calls and so on, perhaps, nobody attending church is asked to provide a personal, individual statement of belief. Faith waxes and wanes IME.

Tbh, though, I also agree with the poster who said send them to the close school if the environment is good. IME of children achieving beyond their peers, they will generally find their own challenges. One of mine 'taught' his maths class when they were attending in two split-up groups with the teacher running between them (literally) as they came out of Covid restrictions. Schools that select too narrowly on ability or socio-economic status can sometimes do children something of a disservice in keeping them in a bubble of 'people like us'.

I did, because I wanted the best education for my child, I'm an atheist. I chose the religious school. I liked the morals they taught. It has a better ofsted and was less ' chavvy' The school is 4 miles away as opposed to the walkable one, I figured it cost me £4k in petrol for my children to go from reception to Yr 6. It means my child can then go to the ' better' church senior school and my eldest got into Grammar school. I don't think he would have if he'd have gone to my nearest school.

It wouldn’t sit right with me and I don’t think it’s a particularly good example to set for your children. Are you going to just stop attending once your child has got their place at the school? It just feels wrong.

That said, I wholeheartedly disagree with state funded faith schools being able to give priority to children whose families practise that religion.

Definitely would. We don't have grammar schools in Scotland and catchments are fixed, but you have to do everything you can to maximise chances of getting the best education.

I don't know, I went to a church primary school and I took what I liked from the school and ignored the other stuff, it wasn't a big deal for me.

There were a few catholic schools near where I was raised, and I can assure you, the religious stuff didn't put them off in any ways! 😂

I'm agnostic but I am involved in our local church, I support their safeguarding policy and lead, and that's led me to become involved in the community events and work they do. No one stands around talking about Jesus, we're all there because we believe in giving back to our community. It has no impact on my DCs schooling, but have a think if you are not anti religion and like the community aspect you can still engage genuinely. I went to a c of e primary and my parents are not religious. It was just our local school.

No because I am not religious and don't lie

It is disrespectful to people who believe and I can't lie to my child like that

I wouldn't. It's dishonest for a start.
I sympathise though as we were in a similar situation. No grammar schools where we lived but the comps nearby were dire.
We moved across town to an area with better schools a few years before the end of primary. It was quite an upheaval at the time but we've never regretted it.

Ah, they old "if they're bright, they'll do well anywhere" nonsense!!

I was bright. I was a straight A* pupil when I went to the nearest crap comp as my parents believed that nonsense. I left school 5 years later, without a single GCSE as I was bullied mercilessly, the classrooms were more like warzones with disruption etc. Yes, "some" pupils came out with a good string of exam results, but the exception rather than the norm, and mostly they were the bullies themselves! I was suicidal most of my teen years because of the severe bullying which wasn't just name calling, it was physical assault (fag end burns, kicks, etc) and theft/damage to my stuff, such as school bag, coat, games kit down the loo, etc. Teachers were shockingly useless whenever I reported it to them - just the old tripe of "you should toughen up". It was only once I escaped that hell hole that I re-started my education, got my GCSEs, then A levels, then a chartered accountancy qualification, mostly by self study, alongside some evening classes at the local adult education college. Crap schools are toxic and that fact that "some" pupils do well doesn't negate the fact that other pupils have their education and teenage years ruined.

I'd certainly start attending church to avoid a school like that, and in fact, we did for our son, as we sound in similar area of having a grammar, a couple of good faith schools and a couple of crap comps. Luckily, he got into the grammar, so we didn't need church attendance after all, but it was a good fallback option.

I absolutely would - all of the schools around us are CofE, but there's one which we're not in catchment for that we debated attending church for to push us up the priority list. In the end we decided not to as our closest one is also excellent, but would feel no moral quandary about having done so. As a pp said, the requirement is to attend, not to believe.

It's not at all amoral to do this.

There is no test of faith/belief. The criterion is simply that you must physically be in the building a set amount of times to qualify. If you are willing to do the actions that qualify your child for the better school then go ahead.

One note of caution. Our city includes a comp like this that gets better results than the non-church comp. However, its a very intrinsically religious environment with lots of Christian-focused activities. On the open day the head teacher's "welcome" speech was actively unwelcoming to non-believers - she said if your child doesn't enjoy being an active part of a church community they aren't going to enjoy it here either. I am an active Christian myself and we would have qualified but my child dislikes church and doesn't believe in god and we decided it wasn't the right school despite the better academics

I went to a c of e school too. It didn't require me to go to church though.

If a school is requiring its population to be made up of a portion of people who attend church then they are deliberately creating a particular culture. I wouldn't want my kids to spend most of their days in such a culture, because church values are not the ones I want my kids to have, particularly about sex/drugs etc. Why do you think the Catholic kids were as you describe?!

But I think you've made up your mind already as is your right.

I would.

Nail on the head. As a parent, you have to do what's best for your child. Sod the principles etc - principles don't give your child a good education! Just like some people move house to get into better catchment areas, others go to church. It's not right, but we have to do right by our children under the circumstances.

Church schools are often huge because of the number of people who temporarily go to church to get in. They're not huge because all their pupils are genuinely religious. Different faith schools also have different admissions policy - for some you need to almost have to attend church weekly, polish the brass, arrange the flowers etc., as they're so over-subscribed, but in others, an occasional church attendance gets you enough points, and in some, just living within a few miles of the church school is enough, without any church attendance points! If people stopped going to church, then they'd have fewer people meeting the points criteria, so would relax the criteria, so more "non attenders" who get in anyway. It's all just a numbers game.

@sausaugeinthesky** has an excellent point. 'Normal' comprehensive catchment areas are discriminative anyway. You'll often find the best ranking comps and secondary schools are in the most expensive catchment areas. Thus a barrier to average income folk. So do what ever is necessary for the best education you can. My catchment comp is awful so I saw the light

I think it would be completely immoral to attend a church if you don't believe in the religion to get your child into a school.

I'm an atheist and if I had attended church, I could have got a place for my daughter at a really amazing and high performing infant school. Despite my religious views, I respect the views of others who practice a religion, and it would never have crossed my mind to be so hypocritical and disrespectful.

If you read threads where people ask about joining a church because they want the community aspects of it all, without necessarily having the belief, people are usually very welcoming and say yes of course, it's a good thing to do, be part of the community is part of the church, might make you end up considering your faith but even if not, it's still a good thing etc. So I don't see why this is so different, if you are doing it to be part of a bigger community which includes the church and the area and the school. If you'd be happy joining that sort of community regardless of whether you get into the school or not - and you might not even want it by the time your child is old enough - then why not

I'd check out how religious the school is, though - they can vary so much, from ones that do full on praying twice a day and grace before lunch, form time where they have to plan and lead religious assemblies, all of that. And others barely mention it.

No I wouldn't. I'm staunch atheist, religion is all nonsense imo. However, I went to a CofE school, as did DH and I did send our kids to one too. Not because of the religion but because it was a good school and it was the closest, directly across the road from our house. 2 minutes commute.

Had they not got in, they'd have gone to a bigger non denom school 15 mins walk away.

I don’t think it’s any more immoral than children getting school places because their parents can afford to buy in the catchments of the best schools. The system will never be “fair”. You do what you think is best for your child.

No because I’m set on my DC going to a secular school.

You will do what you believe to be the best for your child, as most people do. It’s possible that you might move in the next six years, it’s possible that the demographic and attainment of the schools might change, it’s possible that your child might require something different, or any number of variables.

You’re playing the system and you’re doing it with a certain amount of cynicism, but people do that to get what they believe to be the best for their children.

You a Christian yourself Startwirl?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't actively desire for my child to go to a Christian school. But I also want my child to have a decent education.

Do you live in an area with Grammars? It can be harder to understand the predicament if you don't have experience of them. I'd rather live somewhere that doesn't have this stupid system but I want to be around family so here we are.

I either send my child to grammar, if they get in, which involves train journeys to a rough town (in the dark in winter). But because of where we live, there's a good chance they won't get in anyway. I'm reluctant to move due to local parents aging, us all enjoying where we live, and the prohibitive cost of moving, especially now.

Or I send my child to a church school (albeit 50% places are on distance, not church) with good attainment - but I need to attend church fortnightly.

Or I send my child to a school where it's apparently good but the academic performance is poor.

This is what I'm working with. Above all else, my kids come first so it's a tough call but yes, I'm leaning towards attending church. Who knows, I may enjoy it! (Likely as I do enjoy community activities).

This is all very true.