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Elleherd · 21/06/2024 13:51

headstone · 21/06/2024 13:16

SocoBareVira, I’m sure I read the prosecution having expert evidence that the living conditions were dangerous for a newborn baby. It appears that if a coroner cannot determine the exact cause of death due to decomposition, they can’t be proven guilty. I really can’t believe this to be correct There was a massive manhunt for this baby because it was known she was in great danger living with this pair in such dangerous conditions. I doubt anyone believed the baby could survive such an ordeal. It will be a gross in justified if they are not prosecuted.

Frankly if the twats had done even what they were doing better, and taken more care, then even in such shit circumstances yes the baby could have survived. Whether she would have, depends on lots of different factors.

Some babies survive in terrible terrible war conditions, including when their care and survival falls to young fleeing sibling survivors, barely able to save their own lives and dragging them poorly protected and underfed through hell and every possible danger as the only thing a terrified fleeing child knows to do with a new born baby. Much of life or death can be luck for some.

CM/MG decided first to make keeping their child luck, then their babies survival luck, (though they deny that) and having made a bunch of shit decisions that gave poor luck far more likely, (ie leave things way late, then buy shit vehicles, don't chuck the placenta to the crows at the 1st opportunity, don't keep vital documents and cash on your body when fleeing, don't have an essentials grab bag, and an easily grabable baby and cat, etc, etc) now claim it was an incidence of pure bad luck that ended her life, that might have happened anywhere any time.

Sadly all the rest of it put together, doesn't prove the last one untrue, especially if you happen to do all the right things to make cause of death harder to ascertain.

Alltheyearround · 21/06/2024 14:48

MaybeBabynotsure · 19/06/2024 15:26

This was my line of thinking when I asked about their wealth level - the worry could be that will they just set her / them up abroad and they’ll repeat this cycle ?

They had children removed and SS only do this when the children are at risk of harm , they then had a child die whilst in their care and video evidence showed they couldn’t even dress her appropriately for cold weather ? It’s neglect maybe unintentional but still neglect and with a lot of money and connections if they walk free how will future dc be protected ?

Sorry I got hold of the wrong end of the stick on the money issue @MaybeBabynotsure.

Family are wealthy but she and they are at loggerheads, possibly over her relationship with Mark and spectacularly poor parenting choices.

She has some kind of trust fund so no need to work, she gets a monthly allowance I think I read and pushed for more around the time they went on the run. I guess they could just move abroad and potentially have more children. Let's hope if they did go to, say, France that authorities here would be in touch with social services there. Hope they can't just go over the horizon and leave this behind.

Poor, poor baby girl. Whatever way you look at it they made selfish decisions playing at Bonnie and Clyde, and didn't once think to act in the best interests of her or her siblings.

I'm sorry the police didn't manage to get to her before it went so tragically wrong.

Morph22010 · 21/06/2024 18:20

SocoBateVira · 21/06/2024 12:20

Yep.

So it isn't difficult to see why they weren't found guilty of GNM, and I didn't think the concealment would stick either. Less easy to see why they haven't been found guilty of cruelty. That was a stronger case, and they could still have been guilty of it even if Victoria had died of SIDS.

from what I’ve read elsewhere the jury may well have delivered verdicts on the lesser charges earlier in their deliberations so the hung jury isn’t necessarily for all charges. There will be reporting restrictions on this until they decide if it’s going to a retrial or not

SocoBateVira · 21/06/2024 18:34

Morph22010 · 21/06/2024 18:20

from what I’ve read elsewhere the jury may well have delivered verdicts on the lesser charges earlier in their deliberations so the hung jury isn’t necessarily for all charges. There will be reporting restrictions on this until they decide if it’s going to a retrial or not

Interesting, thanks.

ForSereneSwan · 21/06/2024 21:34

I am right in thinking that the prosecution has 2 weeks to come up with something for the Judge to order a retrial?

MabelsBeats · 21/06/2024 21:58

I think just one week.

Redshoeblueshoe · 26/06/2024 12:11

Breaking news - so I'm sure others will have more information.
They have been found guilty on some counts, and will also be facing a retrial

Redshoeblueshoe · 26/06/2024 12:13

Guilty of concealment of the birth of a child and perverting the course of justice

Elleherd · 26/06/2024 12:42

Retrial has a provisional start date of March 2025.

MaybeBabynotsure · 26/06/2024 13:27

Elleherd · 26/06/2024 12:42

Retrial has a provisional start date of March 2025.

Good.

There needs to be justice for that poor little girl and something in place so they don’t repeat their mistakes.

ForSereneSwan · 26/06/2024 14:45

This is a positive move. Just saw it on BBC. Guilty on 2 charges, and retrial. For a moment, I thought they would both walk!

Elleherd · 26/06/2024 14:49

Absolutely agree there needs to be something in place to prevent a repetition,
and they can be made to 'pay' for what they have done with their freedom and whatever 'reputation' they have.
A strong message can be sent out that there is a limit to how cavalier any parent can be with their child before they face consequences from society, but tragically their can be no actual justice for that little child.

karenR1662 · 26/06/2024 16:12

And shall remain in Custody until retrial Thank god No babies while shes in Custody ,Shes so Arrogant she really doesn't Understand what damage shes done to the other 4 kids minds ,NO MORE KIDS

Supersimkin2 · 26/06/2024 16:29

The law can’t let this one drop. Family courts would implode for a start - you can’t have one courtroom (criminal) making a mockery of the one next door (child protection).

Alltheyearround · 26/06/2024 17:43

Good. Their actions need properly addressing. By any account they were utterly misguided and reckless in their thoughts and actions around baby Victoria and disregarded her needs in order to suit their own, whatever the reason she died, in the end it was due to their very poor choices in mishandling the situation.

Heartbreaking though it must be to have multiple children removed from your care, most parents might take time to reflect on why they ended up in that situation (though I think they just regarded social workers etc as the enemy in a conspiracy sort of frame of mind) don't pull a bloody stupid stunt like they did, risking a baby in a high stakes nationwide manhunt. It really was next level idiocy. As was getting pregnant again in the 1st place. You do have to wonder was it planned or accidental and wouldn't you try and make pretty fail safe contraceptive choices if the latter?

Glad they will both remain without freedom until a retrial. Having failed 5 children let's hope that's an end to any more poor children being let down or having their lives cut cruelly short.

Well, they both have a little time to reflect now. I hope they get some counselling so they can properly understand what they did and why their choices were so devastatingly terrible. From her appearances in court, it seems she still feels very righteous about their actions. Am only guessing he feels the same but we can't tell without seeing him answer questions in front of a jury.

Alltheyearround · 26/06/2024 17:48

What are the actual charges - gross negligence and or manslaughter?

MabelsBeats · 26/06/2024 21:26

The charge is gross negligence manslaughter www.thompsons.law/support/legal-guides/what-is-gross-negligence-manslaughter

Alltheyearround · 26/06/2024 21:40

Just reading the BBC article.

So charges remaining include the above as well as:

causing or allowing the death of a child
child cruelty

Vod · 27/06/2024 08:13

MaybeBabynotsure · 26/06/2024 13:27

Good.

There needs to be justice for that poor little girl and something in place so they don’t repeat their mistakes.

Perverting the course of justice can carry very long sentences in itself. So fortunately, it's possible that even with no further convictions, Constance Marten would be in prison too long to have any more.

If they CPS are pursuing GNM again, I hope they've got something new/stronger. I was very surprised child cruelty didn't stick and wouldn't like to see that happen again.

Lunde · 27/06/2024 14:48

Vod · 27/06/2024 08:13

Perverting the course of justice can carry very long sentences in itself. So fortunately, it's possible that even with no further convictions, Constance Marten would be in prison too long to have any more.

If they CPS are pursuing GNM again, I hope they've got something new/stronger. I was very surprised child cruelty didn't stick and wouldn't like to see that happen again.

Yes the maximum for perverting the course of justice if life imprisonment (although rare) - typical sentences seem to be in the 2-7 year range unless mitigating circumstances. Perhaps 4-7 if serious harm resulted.

Can anyone remember what the exact allegations were? Is it in relation to hiding the body to make post mortem impossible?

ChampagnePlease · 27/06/2024 23:12

This was the original charges

Marten, 37 and Gordon, 50, were each charged with manslaughter by gross negligence, causing or allowing the death of a child, concealing the birth of a child, child cruelty and perverting the course of justice.

Tigresswoods · 05/07/2024 08:13

I finally got around to listening to the latest podcast.

I do wonder if she changed tactics & threw him under the bus as a coercive partner if she'd get a different outcome??

Are they really equal partners in this?

I'm making a huge assumption here based on a new story that the other children were taken away due to domestic violence.

Startyabastard · 08/07/2024 11:34

I know the remains of Victoria have had to be analysed for evidence purposes, but was the dear baby ever given a proper funeral?
I don't know when they would be finished with the autopsy.
May she rest in peace xxxx

Alltheyearround · 08/07/2024 14:56

I'm thinking that she will (or maybe has had) a proper funeral and burial/cremation.

I'm sure everyone who has had contact with her professionally will understand how especially important this is, given the tragic events of her short life and how she was left.

To give her respect as a person is the last thing the custodians of her body would do. It sounds like any evidence has already been documented so that would be the last kindness for her little body. Poor wee soul.

You deserved better Victoria.

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