Constance Marten & Mark Gordon - Baby A case

[SportMum1982]

What have I just read? What the actual fuck is wrong with the world. That poor baby. These utter idiots. Sorry I’m so so angry.

Constance Marten and partner ‘killed baby to keep her out of care’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/24e56090-f175-4bf8-ac07-380621d9954f?shareToken=186074e86c05c4df704ef1889186acdc

Yes, incredible.

Yeah that response doesn't surprise me. It's not just the system, we're all responsible.
But to add. It's not a great system.

CM and MG were living in a tent in Wales when she was heavily pregnant with their first child.
They are living in a tent in freezing conditions with their fifth, who then dies of hypothermia or positional asphyxia. Professionals had warned CM twice of the dangers of her falling asleep with her baby on her chest.

I'm sure the Family Courts make poor decisions at times but where is the evidence that this couple have reflected and learnt from their past experience? There seems to be a fatal combination of over confidence, paranoia, scant insight and an unwillingness to change.

Well believe it or not I was also a social worker for many years. And it is a crap system, not just that particular one, but I can't think of any in the UK that actually work. I'm now a researcher.
I'm not saying that people can always change. That's not it, I'm saying it's the belief that they can't is really an issue.
Personally I suspect there were missed opportunities by many organisations to steer things for this child & family that might have avoided this tragedy & the stubborn belief that it's just down to two people is arguably ignorant - at best.

I wish it were possible to provide the right support so that every person could change. I just know that some people simply can't. Any social worker, psychiatrist, psychologist or probation officer will tell you the same. Such people are rare but they exist.

Maybe you should get a degree in psychiatric conditions, it is really bothersome when unqualified people decide or imply on mental health conditions. It's a bit of an abuse of power when they put themselves forward as in the know just because they happen to be professionals in another field.
There's everything wrong with that. Not to mention presumably you are suggesting this is something negative?
Christ. There's so many people with all kinds of mental health diagnoses that are good, kind, insightful individuals. In fact the most insightful people I know have diagnosis of PD.

@Messyhair321 why are you so keen to make excuses? They made these decisions- there were many other options available. They put themselves first, above the needs of the baby.

It’s too easy to blame ‘the system’. There’s a lot wrong with Children’s Services - most of the problems are down to 14 years of austerity. The absence of surestart/other good family centres, preventive support like parenting skills groups etc etc.

we have growing numbers of substance misuse dependent parents who for obvious reasons can’t provide safe, loving consistent care for their children.

these two parents will have been difficult to engage- that much is clear. What happened to that defenceless tiny baby is awful to contemplate. That’s on her parents

Not to mention that PDs are now increasingly being shown to be childhood trauma responses. It was Judith Herman in Trauma and Recovery who first proposed that BPD be renamed CPTSD and made a feminist argument for doing so. But now we have two separate diagnoses which have, surprisingly 🙄, overlapping symptoms. The fact that CM's mother is a therapist doesn't surprise me one bit. Sadly, some of the most messed up people I've met have been therapists. And, as you say, some of the most insightful, wounded people have been labelled with PDs. It really is a bugbear of mine on mumsnet that people automatically label others with a PD due to terrible behaviour with the implication that they were born bad, thus putting the problem in them and not their early experiences. I am not excusing CM by the way but would be interested in hearing about her own childhood and how she ended up going down this terrible path.

It really is a bugbear of mine on mumsnet that people automatically label others with a PD due to terrible behaviour with the implication that they were born bad, thus putting the problem in them and not their early experiences.

I'd like to clarify, as this makes it sound that I am excusing CM from responsibility and that wasn't my intention. It was more a comment on the use of the label of PD. CM should be held accountable for her choices and actions.

‘A degree in psychiatric conditions’ 🤣

Where do you believe that there were "missed opportunities by many organisations to steer things for this child & family that might have avoided this tragedy"?

I thought it was a concealed pregnancy without antenatal care? That the authorities only knew about this baby because of the placenta in the car? Who would have intervened to steer things?

CM in her evidence seemed to believe in a romanticised, alternative living, fantasy world of tent living yet did nothing to prepare for doing that in winter. She seemed to think it would be like Glastonbury rather than the dangers of mid-winter, She talked vaguely about people living in igloos - yet even the inuit abandoned this type of living in the 1960s, in particular because of high infant mortality. And yet the inuit communities would have wrapped their babies in furs, skins and wool whereas CM did not buy her baby a hat or warm coat.

It obviously was not a financial issue that prevented better living conditions. She had enough money at the time Victoria was born to prepay rent.

I think this is an example of the rule of optimism

I said 'I suspect...' unlike you & @RowanMayfair who obviously know & have a magical crystal ball, I don't know actually because the case is still being heard & because the public aren't privy to all of the facts, but there will have been opportunities there always are. Especially when she asked for help from SS, this could have been a different outcome, or when she presented herself to hospital.
Not sure why her family who I suspect knew her predicament, didn't also try to intervene or get some 3rd party to (if they didn't).

It may have been that it wasn't that straightforward with accessing money, they didn't want to be traced so this would very obviously be why they weren't drawing on money because the police were trying to track them. Rightly or wrongly this may well be why they didn't use the resources they had, they were running scared.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be responsible at all but I can empathise at the same time with how they got themselves into that position & why they were frightened. It's not as easy as saying, this person is evil or that person was born a wrong un, people are complicated in my opinion & there will be reasons why they ended up in that position, & I'm sure they'll both play for their errors.

@Messyhair321 how should the family have intervened? She said she had cut contact over 10 years ago, she called them “oppressive and bigoted” and said she had a family trauma. Apparently the family were in touch with social services and her father wanted to he a guardian for the two older kids. I am not sure what the family can do in a situation like this? No drugs or alcohol involved, and they lived in tents, campervans etc and avoided health professionals.

at some point (remember she was abour 30
when she had her first child) adults need to take responsibility for their actions.

when did she present herself to hospital? Not with her latest pregnancy which was hidden from health visitors and SS.

The family were sending her money so there had to be some contact. And I disagree that as a parent or family you wouldn't try, I have older children & there's no way even if they cut contact that I wouldn't try to help or at least get a trusted 3rd party to try to intervene in that situation. There's many ways they could have done but the most glaringly obvious way would be through the trust fund.

I don't think anyone knows if there were drugs involved but again blatantly obvious that there may be other factors at play. Yet to be revealed.

And the family did go to the court hearing so I mean we don't know, they may have tried to intervene. And in my opinion they should these were their grandchild.
You may have different values. But these are mine. And I think I've earnt them.

The family were sending her money so there had to be some contact. And I disagree that as a parent or family you wouldn't try

The family did try but as a pp said, she was 30 and if she refused contact what could the family do?
The money came from a trust which was administered by trustees.

Is no one on this thread actually reading the defence and prosecution from the Old Bailey? I mean why do you feel to give a personal opinion on it.

I wonder how many babies are now in unheated homes because their parents cannot afford central heating? Should only those who can afford heating be allowed to bring their babies back home?

How did we survive the ice age for example? I often thought that when raising my own now adult children.

Also lots of memes about scrapping frost off the inside of window panes. It did us no harm.

Are you actually comparing a house without heating to a tent?

children in the ice age died of hypothermia 🙄

Her family were not sending her money. She had a trust administered by trustees.

Don't be daft.

How Victoria died cannot be determined. The autopsy has confirmed that.

Re: the statement about schizophrenia it can often start in later life eg onset 30s for her and her Father

Schizophrenia developing later in life is very rare - most people have their first break aged 16 - 25. It is really unlikely you will become schizophrenic if you've made it to your thirties. That is not to say you cannot have a psychotic episode.

Then again, like all MH issues, some of the elements that make up psychotic illnesses (strange non mainstream ideas, paranoia, disconnections with reality, delusions) may well be present in people who would not meet criteria for diagnosis - they might otherwise be seen as eccentric.

We cant discount class here either - the upper classes have a long history of not being so bothered about what other people think of them, or resisting normal social conventions. It is equally likely, imo, that CM just has a long history of going her own way - as a PP has said, also something seen a lot in people who gravitate to new age ideas.

How did we survive the ice age for example?

I dont think it was usual to dress yourself warmly but neglect to dress your children for the weather.