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headstone · 24/02/2024 14:57

Presumably it was the mother who left the child in a bag. If the father had taken the child off the mother and left it in the bag he would be prosecuted.

Sonora25 · 24/02/2024 15:03

placemats · 24/02/2024 12:56

I think you shouldn't presume and you are confused with the timeline, though the later is confusing, especially regarding the actual birth date of baby Victoria.

Edited

No idea what you are saying here. I am
confused about the timeline? What?

RowanMayfair · 24/02/2024 15:18

placemats · 24/02/2024 14:11

No that's not true. When an abandoned baby is found the father is never asked to come forward for information. Child abandonment is primarily seen as a woman crime.

That might be a social attitude, and also when a baby has not yet been registered only the mother has PR generally, but it doesn't mean that's the legal position.

RowanMayfair · 24/02/2024 15:19

Right, this was the mother who committed the crime. If the father had abandoned the baby the father would have been charged. Weird hill to die on.

Pebble21uk · 24/02/2024 15:55

placemats · 24/02/2024 12:42

Her access to the trust fund came after her first baby. The house they were living in, East Ham, then was left because of an eviction order due to non payments of rent.

What I can't understand is why they bought such crappy cars, both broke down.

Also the very telling testimony that they were recognised in East Ham.

Can you tell me where the information that the trust fund came after her first baby is please? Do you mean it was triggered by having a child?

Lunde · 24/02/2024 16:09

Sonora25 · 24/02/2024 12:50

@placemats so presumably neither of them had a regular income at that point. I thought at some point she worked as a journalist, she must have given that up after she met him.

It was reported in court this week that from September 2022 onwards CM was paid an allowance of £2,500-3,400 per month from her trust fund, and had requested, and been granted, additional money from the lawyers that managed the trust fund that totalled almost £50,000 in the 4 months prior to Victoria's birth.

I think that both of them were likely into conspiracy theories (preferring to abandon the previous child rather than take a Covid test) and both determined to keep this child despite the recklessness of of their actions. Money didn't seem to be an issue - she had been paid £50K in the months prior to going on the run and could pay £100s, perhaps £1000s for cross country taxis - yet didn't buy proper winter clothes for the baby.

They seemed obsessed with preventing the pregnancy from being discovered and concealing it - so CM had no antenatal care and they did things that they could do for cash rather than credit cards that could be tracked - cheap cars, cheap hotels, taxis living on sweets and crisps from petrol stations.

At some level I'm sure they loved Victoria yet they seemed to have no real conception of what a baby needed to survive and putting the baby's needs ahead of their own.

Lunde · 24/02/2024 16:18

Pebble21uk · 24/02/2024 15:55

Can you tell me where the information that the trust fund came after her first baby is please? Do you mean it was triggered by having a child?

I don't think it was triggered by having a child - it was reported in court this week that she started receiving a monthly allowance from the trust fund in September 2022 - and received £2,500-3,400 a month until they went on the run. She could also request money for specific purposes - therefore she received £50,000 in the 4 months prior to going on the run.

I have not seen CM's dob reported - but it's possible that it kicked in when she was 35.

I posted this link about the money earlier in the thread
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/22/constance-marten-given-nearly-50k-before-going-on-the-run-with-baby

Constance Marten given nearly £50k before going on the run with baby

Aristocrat still had nearly £19k in bank just before search launched for fugitive couple and baby Victoria

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/22/constance-marten-given-nearly-50k-before-going-on-the-run-with-baby

Sonora25 · 24/02/2024 16:32

She was born in May 87. I think her first pregnancy was in 2017. Maybe the trust fund kicked in when she was 30.

my comment re no regular income was about them being evicted and then living in a camper van.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/london-north/news/authorises-charges-against-constance-marten-and-mark-gordon

RunningThroughMyHead · 24/02/2024 17:22

Gingernaut · 06/02/2024 23:17

Although there are instances of bad people coming from 'good' families, the general rule is dysfunctional families produce dysfunctional people

Perhaps they were assessed and found wanting, perhaps they refused to take the children on.

For the surviving children's privacy, this information will likely never be released

It doesn't always work like that.

I have nephews (in law) who went into care due to neglect, parental domestic abuse and substance misuse. Dad had been in and out of prison for serious offenses. Mum had always made questionable choices in life but on her own was a fine mum but unfortunately, always chose men over anything else and this partner was not a good influence.

Anyway, the boys were put into temporary care initially. Other family members were approached by social services but we weren't. Presumably because the parents didn't identify us as an option. We are a stable family with sufficient funds/support network etc. so there's no logical reason why they wouldn't ask us, but they didn't.

We didn't reach out, not because we don't love the boys (although see them very rarely), but because we have our own young children and having our nephews would bring chaos to our door as there's no way their parents would respect boundaries. We avoid them at all costs as they're very bad news.

The boys went into care and are soon to be adopted. It's really sad and I do feel bad as they are lovely boys who deserved so much more, but there's no real way they could have come to us.

So the fact that Constance's family didn't take them in doesn't necessarily mean they had the option to. It could be for lots of reasons. At that stage, constance was estranged from her family, it's possible social services didn't even approach them.

Lunde · 24/02/2024 17:23

Sonora25 · 24/02/2024 16:32

She was born in May 87. I think her first pregnancy was in 2017. Maybe the trust fund kicked in when she was 30.

my comment re no regular income was about them being evicted and then living in a camper van.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/london-north/news/authorises-charges-against-constance-marten-and-mark-gordon

Edited

It says in the article I posted - reported in Court this week - that she first started getting the trust fund payouts from September 2022 onwards.

RunningThroughMyHead · 24/02/2024 17:27

What do people make of Constance's use of "daddy bear" when calling out to Mark when arrested?

It seems a very strange term when he's rarely actually been a 'dad'. Does she always call him that? It seems too intimate (and childish?!) to want to say that Infront of police surely?

I'm wondering if they had developed strange relationship dynamic where Mark was the father type (potentially controlling) partner and she was playing a submissive, passive, child like role in the relationship.

It just strikes me as a very strange nickname to call him and to shout in public!

RowanMayfair · 24/02/2024 17:33

RunningThroughMyHead · 24/02/2024 17:27

What do people make of Constance's use of "daddy bear" when calling out to Mark when arrested?

It seems a very strange term when he's rarely actually been a 'dad'. Does she always call him that? It seems too intimate (and childish?!) to want to say that Infront of police surely?

I'm wondering if they had developed strange relationship dynamic where Mark was the father type (potentially controlling) partner and she was playing a submissive, passive, child like role in the relationship.

It just strikes me as a very strange nickname to call him and to shout in public!

He was a dad though and to 5 children with her. They had 4 kids when living together so they must have had them in their care for quite a while, probably 4 years at least. I don't think it's odd that she called him that.

Simonjt · 24/02/2024 19:16

placemats · 24/02/2024 14:11

No that's not true. When an abandoned baby is found the father is never asked to come forward for information. Child abandonment is primarily seen as a woman crime.

That is purely because the mother is likely in need of medical help. The law you speak of doesn’t exist in the UK.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 24/02/2024 20:02

Child abandonment is primarily seen as a woman crime.

As @Simonjt said, seen as does not equate to 'legally' and asking the mother to come forward is primarily to give medical attention.

At some level I'm sure they loved Victoria yet they seemed to have no real conception of what a baby needed to survive and putting the baby's needs ahead of their own.

That is my observation of the people I have worked with who have had children removed, @Lunde . Its like there is something missing in the way they see the world.

placemats · 24/02/2024 20:08

RunningThroughMyHead · 24/02/2024 17:27

What do people make of Constance's use of "daddy bear" when calling out to Mark when arrested?

It seems a very strange term when he's rarely actually been a 'dad'. Does she always call him that? It seems too intimate (and childish?!) to want to say that Infront of police surely?

I'm wondering if they had developed strange relationship dynamic where Mark was the father type (potentially controlling) partner and she was playing a submissive, passive, child like role in the relationship.

It just strikes me as a very strange nickname to call him and to shout in public!

MG was never the father type. He should have been arrested in Wales for domestic violence and injury to an unborn child. Be in no doubt that making or enabling your heavily pregnant partner to become homeless and travelling from London to Wales is abusive and dangerous.

If he actually cared about his children, especially the first child, he should have sought help. But he didn't and he either enabled or supported delusional behaviour.

Wintersonata · 24/02/2024 20:23

If he actually cared about his children, especially the first child, he should have sought help. But he didn't and he either enabled or supported delusional behaviour.

Yes.

headstone · 24/02/2024 21:34

MG spent his whole life in prison for a crime he committed as a child probably because he was black. He was very unlikely to leave prison a normal person. She had the education, family and access to money, there is no excuse for her behaviour either.

BritneyBookClubPresident · 24/02/2024 23:07

Sonora25 · 24/02/2024 12:31

“y.”
The court was told Marten had given birth to a child in 2017 while living in a campervan, and had put on a fake Irish accent in hospital, pretending to be from the Travellers’ community.
After another birth, in 2021, she had left the child at the hospital, and on returning the following day was refused entry because of Covid restrictions and her refusal to take a test.”

I don’t understand this at all, she had access ro a trust fund and was living in a campervan? She refused to take a covid test even though it meant she couldn’t see her baby? So far in the trial her defence hasn’t claimed any mental health issues - maybe still to come?

This is awful

BritneyBookClubPresident · 24/02/2024 23:09

One of many strange things is why MG keeps referring to Victoria as "the baby" in the police interview? He sounded like he just did not care at all. When treated all he cared about was being fed.

It disgusts me that baby Victoria had two incompetent dangerous people looking after her

BritneyBookClubPresident · 24/02/2024 23:21

Wintersonata · 24/02/2024 20:23

If he actually cared about his children, especially the first child, he should have sought help. But he didn't and he either enabled or supported delusional behaviour.

Yes.

In the police interview he says things like it was not CMs fault/he loved her and was being a good husband/no one could have guessed what would happen. I feel he was setting it up as CM was the decision maker.

It's outrageous to say no-one could guess what would happen. It's all so tragic. Victoria was starved (how could CM breastfeed when she was unable to eat properly), in freezing conditions with a lack of clothes and sanitary surroundings

Sonora25 · 25/02/2024 06:02

headstone · 24/02/2024 21:34

MG spent his whole life in prison for a crime he committed as a child probably because he was black. He was very unlikely to leave prison a normal person. She had the education, family and access to money, there is no excuse for her behaviour either.

Did you read up about his crime? He got 20 years, not his whole life. What do you think is an appropriate sentence for rape and kidnapping? Did you read the victim’s statement? Do you think a 15 year old who broke into a house, took a weapon and raped a mum was a “normal person” before?

Downplaying his crime and making it about race is a weird take here.

Sonora25 · 25/02/2024 06:04

“There were a total of six charges against Gordon relating to the 29 April attack: one count of armed kidnapping, four separate counts of armed sexual battery and one count of burglary with a deadly weapon. He was convicted on all charges.”
source:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mark-gordon-constance-marten-florida-rape-missing-b2267237.html

the victim knew him as well (he was a neighbour) so don’t say he was wrongly convicted.

Convicted rapist Mark Gordon’s sex crimes revealed

The Independent has obtained 23 pages of confidential US court documents on Mark Gordon, who served 20 years for rape and battery

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mark-gordon-constance-marten-florida-rape-missing-b2267237.html

headstone · 25/02/2024 10:13

I’m not downplaying Sonora25, I believe he was only 14 at the time of the crime and should have not gone to an adult facility as children do not have the same brain function as adults. He went to an adult facility because he was black. I’ve seen a documentary about black children being charged as adults in the USA. Obviously when a child commits a really awful crime something has gone wrong somewhere, maybe he was abused himself.

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