Constance Marten & Mark Gordon - Baby A case

[SportMum1982]

What have I just read? What the actual fuck is wrong with the world. That poor baby. These utter idiots. Sorry I’m so so angry.

Constance Marten and partner ‘killed baby to keep her out of care’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/24e56090-f175-4bf8-ac07-380621d9954f?shareToken=186074e86c05c4df704ef1889186acdc

I read an update yesterday- it just gets more and more shocking 😢

CM said the baby died after a few days.

I've been listening to the podcasts. My thoughts so far are
CM is totally minimising the reasons the children were removed from their care. She mentions the fall but not the time she left her newborn in hospital. Also said her family had involved social services and they had been involved for years. I am guessing they had been seriously neglected and that MG was abusive.
i am curious to know why they fled just at the point she was about to give birth. They had a plan to rent a property with cash and conceal the fact of Victoria's existence. Why did they wait until she was 9 months pregnant to do that?
CM probably smothered Victoria rather than Victoria dying of hypothermia. I'm not sure if they would be able to be found guilty of manslaughter for accidental smothering. They certainly caused her death by neglect though.
MG seems delusional and grandiose. He sounds like a very dangerous person.
CM used 'I' rather than 'we' when talking about what they wanted to do with the body. Just an interesting point.
I feel sorry for her. I think she's deluded and arrogant and caused harm to 4 of her children and the death of one but I don't think she understood that she had done any of it. She was apparently in a cult for a while. She seems as though she's a combination of low intellect/gullibility, vulnerability and brainwashed.

Can I ask ask which podcast? Thanks

It's called 'the trial'

https://shows.acast.com/the-trial-of-lucy-letby/episodes/introducing-the-trial-constance-marten-mark-gordon

@RowanMayfair I don't think you can say she was low intellect as she has degree in Arabic & Middle Eastern Studies from Leeds University and she also worked for Al Jazeera after graduating.

Living in a fantasy of her and Mark Gordon's own making, lacking in skills to keep her children alive and well and utterly selfish... yes! They also appear to have had an 'us against the world' mentality. Their only reason for concealing the birth seems to be to evade social services, who knew the baby was at great risk. But they thought they knew better - and look how that turned out!

That's interesting. You're right, she must be average intellect at least.

I don’t believe they had/have a drug problem. It has never been mentioned during the trial and how would they have been able to buy drugs on the run without phones and limited cash. No drug paraphernalia was found inside their stuff either.
makes their behaviour even more baffling I guess. I also don’t believe her explanation in why the four children were taken into care, there is probably more to it.

such a weird relationship, they seem obsessed with each other and detached from reality.

She calls him her soul mate all very strange

I don't think that's strange? Why shouldn't she

@Sonora25 They do! A bizarre and co-dependant relationship.

Drugs have not been mentioned - but they did have phones with them which they used (one taxi driver talked about hearing a message come through) and they also found something like 30 burner phones in the back of the car which caught fire and was abandoned... which is also very bizarre!

Yesterday it came out in court that they had got married in Peru (in a ceremony not recognised in the UK) about 7 years ago. I know there was some speculation on Websleuths that perhaps it was Shamanic, but who knows.

I think religion has a big part to play myself - given her background of escaping a cult in Lagos and the fact a Bible was found in the burned out car as well - but a very specific edition belonging to a Christian cult-like sect here in the UK.

So much is really baffling, but at the end of the day it's about the neglect of a baby who was completely let down by her parents!

When they were arrested CM called MG 'Daddy Bear'. It's interesting that when she was in the Lagos cult they had to call the leader 'Daddy'.

Yes, but also he was the father of her kids and it's not unusual for people to have cutesy nicknames for each other in relationships.

Throughout the trail yes it’s odd, most people would say that to each other but not refer to each other that way to other people. Hope that makes more sense.

My gut feeling is purely that there's some sort of mental illness or adhd going on. I think her dad might have had the same sort of mindset to just run away the way he did and abandon the kids and his wife.
Also, for all we know, her childhood could have been traumatic. Some people can be destroyed by being packed off to school rather than being in a home environment.
I'm definitely not condoning CM here but just think we may never know why she's acted so strangely.
Also, lots of people who have kids removed appear to be delusional. I know a woman who had hers taken and she is adamant she did nothing wrong even though its soooo obvious that she was neglecting the poor kids!

There have been quite a few comments in CM’S state of mind, mental health and upbringing, but what about MG? No one has commented on his childhood or IQ or anything and surely he was just as much responsible for the children?

I think with MG it is less of a surprise that his life spiralled out of control and that he faces such charges. To be convicted of such a crime at 14 he must have had a dreadful childhood and then all those years in an adult prison you wonder what kind of functioning human being such a life would create. She is more of the mystery given her seemingly idyllic life and the normal friendships she had.

It's heartbreaking thinking of Victoria and her short life.

I'm also listening to the podcast but I'm an episode behind. Is that where you got the details of the neglect of the other children? I hope they are all safe, loved and happy

I was just wondering if anybody knows whether she's being held in Bronzefield in solitary? As often news seems to filter down from other prisoners about the person ie what they're like.

Just curious really.

Thanks for the link to the podcast which is a good representation of the trial, which is still ongoing.

I'll not comment on state of mind.

However I had no idea about the details and it's very enlightening as to how they travelled across the UK.

Saw this article that CM had received almost £50,000 in the months leading up to her going on the run from a family trust fund. Presumably this is what funded a lot of their plans to go on the run and paid for things like the car, holiday let and the cross country taxis etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/22/constance-marten-given-nearly-50k-before-going-on-the-run-with-baby

I'd say it's not necessarily a religious facet, but an attraction to someone or something that would take over her life, some central element to orbit around, a sense of being part of something exciting and purposeful and bigger than herself.

I'd say that anyone who was vulnerable to joining a cult would also be vulnerable to getting sucked into devotion to any individual person who could create an aura about himself. I'd also say there would be an addictive personality at play - causing her to persist in the relationship despite pain - in the face of personal damage and estrangement from family and friends, loss of former lifestyle and dreams of the future, even loss of her own children.

You'd need to have a very weak sense of your own self to get involved in a cult and to give up as much as she sacrificed in order to first join the cult, and then stay involved with MG.

Maybe she was looking for a sense of surrendering to a power stronger than herself, the feeling of not having to negotiate life with all its complexities. That would be a mix of self abnegation and also avoidance of reality.

I recall reading that her family sent her to the religious place/cult. Can't remember where I read that though.

Thanks for the mention of the podcast, I have been listening with interest. I did not expect to have any sympathy for her, but cant help feeling it. It was all very traumatic. There needs to be a lot more done to support families who have children removed - it is not something that is talked about much, but from my understanding, its not uncommon for them to do some of what CM and MG did.

I can't help wondering about her family in all this. I mean they played the part of estranged for the cameras but were giving her tens of thousands of pounds behind the scenes while she was on the run. Doesn't that make them complicit in enabling her to hide for so long by financing her escapade? If they'd stopped her access to cash she wouldn't have been able to go to ground as long as she did, surely?