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Ukraine Invasion: Part 47

989 replies

MagicFox · 25/01/2024 13:25

Welcome to thread 47. Thanks as usual to all for the information, guidance and solidarity.

**
Agreed thread guidance:

A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events

B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content

C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful

OP posts:
Thread gallery
221
DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 10:06

What the hell?

I'm afraid that's just not the case. Given Putin's heavy indoctrination of Russia, most of them supported him before the war, supported him during and no doubt will support him after.

Do you really think the West had the power to change Russia? Because if so you're overestimating the power of the West a very great deal to change the fundamental nature of a culture.

You, we, are nowhere near as powerful to change the fundamental nature, values and culture of a country that has for centuries been repressive and brutally cruel in its invasions.

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 10:20

Fox111 · 17/02/2024 08:06

Good report. Again reinforces my view that west done everything in its power to reinforce Putins Russia. They punished ordinary Russians, made it impossible to travel and use global services. Banned all the sportsmen, oligarchs and intellectuals. And filled the countries coffers with hundreds of billions to fund the war machine. And what do you have in the end; country with a booming war economy and the public strongly supporting their leader.

I cannot believe you are blaming the West for the Russians' support of the war in the face of ALL THE EVIDENCE. And claiming the Russian economy is booming, in the face of evidence that it is overheating and the absolute secrecy of genuine figures, in a society known for profound dishonesty and corruption.

You speak Kremlin.

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 10:27

The Kremlin have said that 'Washington and Brussels are to blame for Navalny's death.'

Would you like to endorse that, since you think that the West is reinforcing Putin?

prettybird · 17/02/2024 10:40

Given that Biden had said that Russia would face "serious consequences" if Navalny died, then, being cynical, from Putin's perspective, now is a "convenient" Hmm time to get rid of Navalny, as the sanctions that have already been applied to Russia because of the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine means that there isn't really much more that the USA can do ConfusedSad

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 10:41

Kyiv Independent Telegram Highlights

⚡️⚡️Commander-in-Chief Oleksandr Syrskyi withdraws https://kyivindependent.com/syrskyi-withdraws-units-from-avdiivka/ units from Avdiivka. [the ruins of Avdiivka have fallen. Honour to the Ukrainian fallen who defended it so hard]

Zelensky in Munich: 'If Ukraine left alone https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-addresses-withdrawal-from-avdiivka-in-munich-pushes-allies-for-more-aid/ Russia will destroy us.'

⚡️ Reuters: Threat of Russian space-based nuclear weapons remains https://kyivindependent.com/threat-of-russian-space-based-nuclear-weapons-remains-low-analysts-say/ low, Reuters reported on Feb. 15, citing a source in the U.S. government and arms control analysts. Russia is unlikely to deploy nuclear weapons in space but may be exploring other nuclear-powered space-based weapons with the potential capability of targeting satellites.

⚡️ Sweden is open to providing Ukraine with modern fighter jets, but the Nordic country first needs a full-fledged NATO membership, Swedish Defense Minister Pal Jonson told the Kyiv Independent during an interview on the sidelines of the Munich Security Conference on Feb. 16. https://kyivindependent.com/swedish-minister-open-to-jets-for-ukraine-once-sweden-enters-nato/

⚡️US Senators to advocate for Sweden's NATO bid https://kyivindependent.com/us-senators-to-push-swedens-nato-bid-during-visit-hungary/ during visit to Hungary.

⚡️ 3rd Assault Brigade says it wiped out https://kyivindependent.com/3rd-assault-brigade-says-15-000-russian-troops-at-its-sector-in-avdiivka/ 2 Russian brigades at Avdiivka.
Ukraine's Third Assault Brigade, whose soldiers were recently deployed to Avdiivka, is facing around 15,000 Russian troops at its sector of the front, the unit said on social media on Feb. 16.
During the engagements, the brigade has effectively "wiped out" Russia's 74th and 114th separate motorized rifle brigades. Russia's estimated losses are 4,200 troops killed or wounded, according to the unit's report.

⚡️ Washington Post: Russia conducts disinformation campaign https://kyivindependent.com/washington-post-russia-conducts-disinformation-campaign-to-undermine-zelensky/ to undermine Zelensky.
Last year, the Kremlin established a disinformation task force aimed at undermining Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky and driving a wedge between the Ukrainian population and its leadership, the Washington Post reported on Feb. 16, citing internal Russian documents.

A group of bipartisan lawmakers from the U.S. House of Representatives unveiled on Feb. 16 a combined $66 billion aid package for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan, after the Republican-controlled House withheld a vote on a previous version of a funding package.
The new package, which includes $47 billion in aid funding for Ukraine, will once again tie funding to domestic border security measures demanded by House conservatives. https://kyivindependent.com/us-lawmakers-unveil-bipartisan-bill-for-46-billion-in-aid-funding-for-ukraine/

⚡️Zelensky arrives https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-arrives-in-france-for-talks-with-macron/ in France for talks with Macron.

⚡️France to provide https://kyivindependent.com/france-to-provide-artillery-air-defense-package-to-ukraine/ artillery, air defense package to Ukraine.

US provides https://kyivindependent.com/us-provides-new-aid-package-to-help-police-document-russian-war-crimes/ Ukraine with war crimes collection assistance.

⚡️ Russian anti-war presidential candidate Nadezhdin loses https://kyivindependent.com/russian-anti-war-presidential-candidate-nadezhdin-loses-2-appeals-against-his-disqualification/ 2 appeals against his disqualification.

⚡️ Navalny's mother: 'He was alive, healthy, https://kyivindependent.com/breaking-russian-opposition-leader-navalny-reportedly-dies-in-prison/ and cheerful' days ago.

⚡️Russian parliament speaker: 'Washington and Brussels are to blame for Navalny's death.'

Multiple people have been reportedly detained in Russia as the police moved to disrupt events across the country honoring opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who died earlier on Feb. 16.

https://kyivindependent.com/alexei-navalny-life-death/

Hundreds of protestors have gathered at Russian embassies around the world to honor Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny who was murdered in a Russian penal colony on Feb. 16.

⚡️Prosecutor General: Russia has used 24 North Korean missiles https://kyivindependent.com/prosecutor-general-russia-has-used-24-north-korean-missiles-in-ukraine/ in Ukraine.

Ukraine's national shipping company, "Ukraine Danube Shipping," (UDP) began to form container caravans as an alternative logistics route across the Danube, bypassing the blocked border in the west of the country https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-using-container-caravan-as-alternative-to-blocked-border/

⚡️Reuters: Oreos manufacturer Mondelez overhauls https://kyivindependent.com/reuters-oreos-manufacturer-mondelez-reshuffles-russian-operations-amid-boycott-protests/ Russian operations amid boycott, protest

⚡️ Pistorius at Munich Conference: No new information on Taurus missiles. https://kyivindependent.com/pistorius-at-munich-conference-no-new-information-on-taurus-missiles/

⚡️ Navalny's death prompts fresh calls for Ukraine aid in US.
Some U.S. Congress members have renewed their calls for the approval of a $60 billion aid bill for Ukraine following the death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny on Feb. 16.

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban is facing mounting discontent after it was revealed that President Katalin Novak, who resigned on Feb. 10, pardoned a man convicted of covering up widespread sex abuse at a government-run children's home. https://kyivindependent.com/pressure-on-orban-grows-amid-child-sex-abuse-scandal/

⚡️Reuters: War in Ukraine has cost https://kyivindependent.com/us-official-war-in-ukraine-has-cost-russia-up-to-211-billion/ Russia up to $211 billion, US official says. Nearly two years since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022, the anonymous official noted that the war had cost Russia an expected $1.3 trillion in anticipated economic growth through 2026.

Ragnar Bjartur Gudmundsson 🇺🇦 AT ragnarbjartur.bsky.social

⚡️ WAR IN #UKRAINE - FEB 17, 2024
■ High casualties continue, fewer equipment losses reported
■ Drop in 🇷🇺 airstrikes while 🇺🇦 airstrikes stay above average
■ 🇷🇺 artillery strikes stay at a high level however

Ukraine Invasion: Part 47
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 17/02/2024 10:43

Withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from Avdiivka. From The Guardian:

The Ukrainian army withdrew its troops from the devastated town of Avdiivka in Donetsk to avoid encirclement and save the lives of its troops, the army’s commander-in-chief has said.
In a short statement posted on Facebook, Ukrainian commander Col. Gen. Oleksandr Syrskyi said he had made the decision to avoid encirclement and “preserve the lives and health of servicemen.” He added that troops were moving to “more favourable lines.”

“Our soldiers performed their military duty with dignity, did everything possible to destroy the best Russian military units, inflicted significant losses on the enemy in terms of manpower and equipment.

“We are taking measures to stabilize the situation and maintain our positions,” the statement read.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 17/02/2024 10:44

Sorry cross post Dances

PerkingFaintly · 17/02/2024 10:46

@Fox111, I'm sorry you've lost Navalny. I guess for all his flaws, he provided hope for your country.

My friends in Russia (Brits married to Russians) are also stuck in the country. It's very difficult to travel even to see elderly family in the UK, never mind for nice jollies.

But for as long as you carry on blaming Everyone Else for Russia's leadership, how do you think it will change?

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 11:08

UNITED24 Media Telegram Highlights

✈️ This morning in the Eastern direction, during enemy strikes with guided aerial bombs on the positions of our troops, the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine destroyed three Russian aircraft at once: 2 Su-34 and one Su-35.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced that Germany is preparing a new €1.1 billion military aid package for Ukraine. It includes missiles for the IRIS-T air defense system, two Skynex anti-aircraft systems, 36 self-propelled howitzers, 120 thousand sets of ammunition.

🇩🇪The German government has updated the list of military aid to Ukraine.
The new package, which is already being transferred, includes 18 armored personnel carriers, 3,990 artillery rounds, 3 WISENT demining vehicles, 11 mine trawls, a total of 58 unmanned reconnaissance systems and other equipment.

58 fallen defenders were returned to Ukraine.

Russia has never stopped mobilization, — Budanov.
In recent days, the media has been spreading information about a new wave of mobilization in Russia. Particularly, it is about Putin aiming to mobilize over 400,000 people.
"The aggressor state has never stopped recruiting people for the occupying army. At least 30,000 people are mobilized in Russia every month."

The production of American weapons for supply to Ukraine continues under previously concluded contracts, despite the fact that the US Congress has not yet approved additional funding for assistance to Kyiv, the Pentagon said.

Zelenskyy and Macron have signed a bilateral Agreement on cooperation in the field of security in Paris, announced Deputy Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, Ihor Zhovkva. @notimagain
▫️ France confirms that Ukraine's prospective accession to NATO will contribute to peace and stability throughout Europe;
▫️ The main components of France's security commitments include comprehensive assistance to Ukraine to protect and restore its territorial integrity, support for economic recovery and reconstruction, prevention and active deterrence of any new aggression by the Russian Federation, as well as support for Ukraine's integration into the EU and NATO;
▫️ Specific provisions of the Agreement focus on cooperation in the fields of information and cyber security, protection of critical infrastructure, cooperation in intelligence and counterintelligence, as well as combating organized crime;
▫️ Fixed amounts of support are outlined — in 2024, France will provide Ukraine with up to three billion euros in military aid. Support will continue for the duration of the 10-year Agreement;
▫️ A mechanism for emergency consultations and appropriate response within 24 hours in the event of a possible future armed attack by the Russian Federation has been established;
▫️ A robust military bloc will provide Ukraine with security assistance and modern military equipment across land, air, sea, space, and cyber domains, prioritizing but not limited to, air defense, artillery, long-range weapons, armored vehicles, air force capabilities, and other critical capabilities;
▫️ The defense industry cooperation block entails France's assistance in developing Ukraine's defense and industrial base, through the attraction of French investments, localization of production within Ukraine, and joint production for priority weapons and ammunition manufacturing.

The US Department of Justice announced the dismantling of a Russian intelligence hacking network, stated US Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco.
The US Department of Justice disclosed that a court-ordered operation "neutralized" a network of hundreds of small office and home routers controlled by Russian intelligence, which were utilized to perpetrate various crimes.
"The GRU relied on the Moobot malware, associated with a known criminal group. Cybercriminals not affiliated with the GRU installed the Moobot malware on Ubiquiti Edge OS routers that still used publicly known default administrator passwords. Subsequently, the GRU used Moobot to install its own scripts and files, repurposing the botnet into a global cyber-espionage platform," stated the ministry in a statement.

Budanov vowed a "response" to the poisoning of his wife, as stated in an interview with the French newspaper Liberation.
It's worth recalling that at the end of last year, it was revealed that Marianna Budanova had been poisoned with heavy metals, underwent treatment, and is currently recovering.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 47
DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 11:23

Live: Ukraine Telegram Highlights

Navalny's father confirmed the death of his son, Russian media report.
Yulia Navalnaya, Aleksey Navalny's wife, spoke during the Munich Security Conference:
"I want to call on the entire international community, everyone in this room, people around the world, to unite together and defeat this evil, defeat the appalling regime that is now in Russia."

White House "considering options" on how to respond to Putin over Navalny's death - The Telegraph

In the Russian city of Izhevsk a shopping center building was on fire there, and it was used for the production of drones.
Russians also write about nighttime drone attacks in Bryansk, Belgorod, and Kaluga regions. They report 33 downed UAVs.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba believes that after each of Putin's murders of his critics, world leaders shook hands with him again, and this encouraged Putin to continue killing.
"Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Magnitsky, Nemtsov, Navalny are just some of the most famous names in the long list of critics killed by Putin. Today, some voices continue to call for Putin to be heard and negotiated with. It is time to end the naivety. Before there can be any meaningful engagement with Moscow, Russia must fail in Ukraine and Putin must finally learn his lesson,"– Kuleba said.

"Please do not ask Ukraine when the war will end. Ask yourself why Putin is still able to continue it," Volodymyr Zelensky said https://www.youtube.com/live/PnjiQIGwhc4?si=U9RgtP_oFUF5rm-V at a press conference in Munich.

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/live/PnjiQIGwhc4?si=U9RgtP_oFUF5rm-V%29

Februaryfeels · 17/02/2024 11:32

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 10:27

The Kremlin have said that 'Washington and Brussels are to blame for Navalny's death.'

Would you like to endorse that, since you think that the West is reinforcing Putin?

Why are they to blame?

There was a russiann mp on Newsnight last night. He claimed he either died of natural causes or Ukraine and MI6 did it. 😒. It wasn't Victoria on, the other presenter didn't challenge him

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 11:35

mmmm, because Russian prisons in the Arctic are just filled with MI6

PerkingFaintly · 17/02/2024 11:40

It's just vranyo.

Lying to your face, when you know they're lying, and they know you know they're lying. <shrug> Can't say it does anything for me.

DancesWithDucks · 17/02/2024 11:45

Yeah :)

Tim White (AT TWMCLtd)

Zelenskyy, answering journalists' questions in Munich, said Russia's losses in Avdiivka were 7 times higher than Ukraine's. The President said he "cannot reveal" their total losses. The 7:1 ratio is credible because of the suicidal storm tactics used by Putin's horde.

https://twitter.com/TWMCLtd

notimagain · 17/02/2024 12:31

@DancesWithDucks

Zelenskyy and Macron have signed a bilateral Agreement on cooperation in the field of security in Paris

Yep, they did a joint press conference that went out live on some of the news channels here last night.

Must admit President Z looked a bit weary at times when President M started getting into what looked like it was going to be, but fortunately wasn't, a slightly lengthy speech.

They both came over very well during the post speeches Q&A session with the assembled media.

MagicFox · 17/02/2024 15:45

Brilliant thread on the Carlson-Putin interview and what it reveals by Prof Paul Poast: x.com/profpaulpoast/status/1756303801613529527?s=46&t=ZRiOqYBPJdwGCarjKNzCeQ

OP posts:
MagicFox · 17/02/2024 16:37

A good article by Paul Poast I missed first time round:

"Not a World War But a World at War"
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/11/conflicts-around-the-world-peak/676029/

OP posts:
blueshoes · 17/02/2024 22:42

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-february-16-2024

Key Takeaways:

  • Ukrainian forces have begun to withdraw from Avdiivka, and Russian forces appear to be focused on complicating or preventing a complete Ukrainian withdrawal.
  • Ukrainian forces may have to conduct counterattacks to conduct an orderly withdrawal from Avdivika, and Russian efforts to complicate or prevent a Ukrainian withdrawal may become increasingly attritional.
  • Germany and France both signed bilateral security agreements with Ukraine on February 16.
  • NATO officials are increasingly warning that Russia poses a significant threat to NATO’s security.
  • Independent Russian survey data suggests that most Russians are largely apathetic towards Russia’s war in Ukraine, particularly Russians who have not personally lost family members in Ukraine and are thus able to avoid thinking about the war entirely.
  • The Russian reaction to the reported death of imprisoned opposition politician Alexei Navalny on February 16 was relatively muted.
  • Russian forces recently made confirmed advances along the Kupyansk-Svatove-Kreminna line, northwest of Bakhmut, and near Avdiivka.
  • Russian President Vladimir Putin continues to posture himself as an involved and effective wartime leader.
  • Russian-controlled courts in occupied Ukraine continue to pass harsh sentences on Ukrainian prisoners of war (POWs).
blueshoes · 17/02/2024 22:51

@MMBaranova appreciate the round up of Russian Presidential Election Runners.

Seems like much of a muchness.

Might as well round up all the Putin dopplegangers and let the Russian public vote who looks and acts most like Putin. Would be a more interesting and less pre-determined race.

MagicFox · 18/02/2024 07:56

Mark Galeotti in The Independent this morning.

"Three big lessons from two years of war in Ukraine"

Two years of bloody war in <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/HKpDW/www.independent.co.uk/topic/ukraine" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ukraine have seen more than half a million <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/HKpDW/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-gains-crimea-russia-war-b2419529.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">soldiers killed or wounded, more than six million Ukrainians flee the country, and yet a front line which has <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/HKpDW/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-b2449291.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">scarcely moved for a year now.
Looking ahead, there will be decisions to be made on everything from the next Western weapon systems to provide Ukraine, to whether Kyiv adopts a more defensive strategy, but there are three key lessons and indicators for the future that hint where the war could go next…
Listen closely to what Putin says – the clues are always there
For all his willingness to lie and misdirect, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/HKpDW/www.independent.co.uk/topic/vladimir-putin" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Vladimir Putin does tend to tell us what he wants. When he invaded, he seemed genuinely to have believed that he was in for a walk-over.
As reiterated in the surreal first half hour of his interview with Tucker Carlson earlier this month, where he treated the American conservative TV personality to his take on Russian-Ukrainian history since the ninth century, he does not truly believe they are two distinct countries.
Instead, he assumed the Ukrainians would, almost without a fight, accept the imposition of a new and more tractable government willing to keep Ukraine within <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/HKpDW/www.independent.co.uk/topic/russia" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Russia’s sphere of influence.
To a degree, this is still his avowed aim. However, there is also a certain nuance starting to creep into his rhetoric that we should pay attention to.
He still wants to keep Ukraine out of Nato, but there are hints from figures, both officials and think tankers, that he would be willing to see it join the EU.
If Russia can retain the territories it has occupied, then the indications are that, so long as it remains neutral, the rump Ukraine can be allowed a degree of independence.
Of course, this is neither acceptable under international law, nor to the Ukrainians. However, it does demonstrate that even Putin’s imperialist demands will be modulated by what he thinks he can get.
Putin goes into 2024 in a strong position. His forces have weathered last year’s Ukrainian counter-offensive and have more ammunition. He has hopes for the prospect of political change in the West, especially if Donald Trump wins the presidency.
However, we should not expect any genuine willingness to talk, let alone make concessions. As the coming year unfolds and if Ukraine holds the line and prepares its forces for renewed operations in 2025, as Western ammunition production begins to scale up and resolve is maintained, then we need to be alert to any signals that Putin is getting rattled.
If that happens, it may be a sign that negotiations are possible – but in the shorter term, it would likely spell escalation or some desperate gambit, as he tries to regain the initiative.
Manpower matters – but it is a problem, for both sides
Much of the debate in the West revolves around which weapons to send Ukraine, and past recriminations that the “right” ones were not sent in the “right” numbers at the “right” time.
Of course, the pace, scale and nature of military assistance matters, but the truth is that there is no magic weapon able to turn the tide of the war alone. When HIMARS and other long-range rocket and artillery systems were first provided, they were heralded as war-winners.
They certainly did allow the Ukrainians to strike Russian command posts and ammunition dumps with greater range and accuracy once they were introduced in July 2022, but in time the invaders adapted.
From modern Western tanks to the F-16 jets whose pilots are already in training, these all offer incremental improvements to Ukrainian military capabilities, but not a silver bullet.
This war has provided a stark and bloody reminder that manpower is still key. There is a reason why both sides keep their combat losses classified – with Kyiv not even telling its allies quite how many casualties it has suffered.
A larger number of Putin’s soldiers have been killed or injured – but Russia’s population is four times Ukraine’s and as a proportion of the population, the Ukrainians are taking heavier losses.
Boots on the ground is one military resource that the West will not provide. While Britain’s Operation Interflex has trained upwards of 30,000 Ukrainian soldiers, there is no serious constituency advocating sending troops to fight and risking a wider war with Russia.
The manpower issue is becoming increasingly difficult for both sides. Moscow’s claims that 1,000 to 1,500 Russians volunteer for the military every day look heavily inflated, yet before March’s presidential elections, Putin clearly does not want a repeat of the massively unpopular mobilisation of September-October 2022.
Unless he does draft more men, though, the chances of his forces being able to launch major and sustained offensive operations in 2024 are limited, so this will be a key indicator to watch.
The military’s request that another 450,000 to 500,000 soldiers be called up brought to a head tension between president Volodymyr Zelensky and his popular commander in chief General Valerii Zaluzhny. Ukraine is already spending more than a third of its GDP on defence, and the question is whether it can afford these extra soldiers.
Zelensky subsequently sacked Zaluzhny, and a new conscription law is still under discussion. The fear is that as conscription becomes increasingly draconian and extensive, this may, in the words of a European diplomat based in Kyiv, “begin to undermine Ukrainian morale, and make some kind of deal with Putin a little less unthinkable”.
Victory and defeat mean different things now
There is much often-empty talk of victory and defeat. At the start of the war, when Russian forces were advancing on Kyiv, it was relatively easy to define both: the very survival of Ukraine as an independent, sovereign nation was under direct threat. Two years on, though, thanks to the extraordinary defiance of the Ukrainian people, it is a lot harder to define either.
Is a Ukrainian victory nothing short of expelling every Russian soldier from every inch of occupied territory, including Crimea? Not only will that be a difficult task, but it would not necessarily end the war, simply move the front line to the national border.
Putin would still be free to regroup his forces for another attack while lobbing drones and missiles at Ukrainian cities and powerlines.
Does a Ukrainian defeat mean the subjugation of the nation? That is looking highly unlikely now that Russia’s military has taken such heavy losses. The worst case, according to both British and Ukrainian strategists, is that Russia could push to the Dnipro River that cuts through the country, occupying all of the east.
This would be terrible, not least for the Ukrainians trapped in Russian-held territory, but it would not extinguish the Ukrainian nation.
At present, Ukraine is formally committed to the maximalist notion of victory, but even in Kyiv there are quiet voices acknowledging that the country may come to face a terrible dilemma: continue the war indefinitely or accept the loss of some territory in the name of being able to move on, especially with Nato and EU membership.

As one official admitted, “we’re nowhere near this now, but we might one day have to decide that Ukrainian lives matter more than Ukrainian soil”.

This would not be easy. Zelensky has ruled out any concessions, and it would even run counter to the constitution, although there are ways of fudging this – such as by not formally recognising any Russian claim to the occupied territories.

Nonetheless, as there can be no meaningful strategy without a clear sense of an objective, it is clear that in this third year of war, we may see careful and discreet discussions intended to nail down quite what Kyiv and its Western partners believe is a meaningful and achievable success.

OP posts:
Goldenbear · 18/02/2024 10:50

Igotjelly · 16/02/2024 22:53

Watching the news this evening and they’re running interviews with Russian people coming to lay flowers for Navalny. They may be small in number but what incredibly brave individuals, many of them so young, to speak out against their Govt when they know the potential consequences. It’s easy for me or others to say they should do more, but what is more? What can they do? I spend so long hating the Russians and it brings me real hope to see that there is still good amongst the bad. There is a flicker of light left. It’s really reminded me that these people aren’t my enemy, I can’t remember where I heard them referred to as Putin’s hostages but it’s so true.

Putin, the ugly evil vindictive little man, and all of his enablers and henchmen (looking at you too Trump!) are my enemies. We are in dark times but I genuinely believe better times will come, for Ukraine, for Russia and for the World 🇺🇦

Edited

I felt the same watching the news.

MagicFox · 18/02/2024 10:56

Nato has no choice but to strengthen its bulwarks against Putin
An ageing Russian ruler surrounded by sycophants may embark on even more reckless moves in coming years
ALEXANDER GABUEV

on.ft.com/3T0P3A6

OP posts:
MagicFox · 18/02/2024 10:57

Hope that link works: I've signed up to the FT so I can share paywalled stuff

OP posts:
DancesWithDucks · 18/02/2024 11:07

Fucking disgusting savages.

https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1758971458670194742

For those who don't have Twitter, it's a line of adults and children,, all blindfolded, all attached to a line, being led out of their village which is occupied by Russia.

Russia is truly and utterly DISGUSTING.

https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1758971458670194742

This thread prevents users from posting on it until they have been members for at least 14 days.