Do you believe IVF is ok?

[Ididivfama]

I’ve been reading a lot of the surrogacy threads recently (and I know that is a different topic) but I was curious to mumsnet posters ideas of ethics and ivf. You can see from my name that we ended up doing it, but I won’t be horribly offended by different views. I’m more curious.

Obviously it’s ’unnatural’ as a process and there is the issue of what happens to any extra blastocysts (I use the term blastocyst as they are pre-embryo stage and calling them embryos makes people view it differently - at least I did!) Even so, would you count leaving blastocysts to decay as abortion? I never did but I’ve read that view now so I’m curious as to how many people view it like that.

As is pointed out on the surrogacy threads - no one is ‘entitled’ to have a child. Is that the same for us ivf parents?

Nope. Once people get beyond replacement that is not good either as far as I'm concerned. 🤷‍♀️ People don't want to face up to the uncomfortable truth but we have to stop having as many children or we are all going to drive ourselves and every other living organism on this planet into a very bad place. That's a completely different discussion to the false syllogism about whether children who already exist ought to or not (not sure what disability has to do with it though).
Not everyone who wants a child can have one. We need to find a way to square ourselves with that and move on and find meaning in our lives and an outlet for that caring urge, and stop bringing more people into this world when the planet can't support those who are here.

I don't want to upset anyone and I thought this was going to be a more objective and logical discussion, but it's getting quite emotive for people so I'm going to bow out now.

I believe blastocysts/embryos/fertilized eggs are human from the point of fertilization and therefore strongly oppose creating more of them than will be used (almost) straight away.

I would willingly have IVF to "adopt" unwanted embryos if I could afford to do so.

My friends are mostly aware of my views, I think, but of course I support them through IVF even when I disagree with the number of lives started, because I love them and it isn't my place to judge them.

People who oppose abortion for ethical reasons are generally also opposed to IVF. The issues are completely different from surrogacy.

Wow. Easy to say this when you conceived naturally, think of the hurt and pain women go through. I had ivf for my first, wouldn't ever not consider it. My body, my right.

IVF wouldn’t have been an option for me - it’s always been blamed within our family for causing my aunts breast cancer to reoccur, (maybe without just reason.)

I also don't think the NHS should fund it.

My son is the result of many cycles of IVF and frankly, I really couldn't give a shit if people don't agree with it!

But you could have made them naturally, technically.

And what about all the breech babies that have been saved by caesareans.

How on earth would it have caused that? (With all due respect)

I had no idea there were people with any qualms about IVF!

I absolutely support it and think it's wonderful. I also don't mind my tax being used for it whatsoever. Leaving blastocysts (first I've ever heard of that!) isn't remotely similar to abortion, but I'm pro-choice full stop, so I wouldn't have any opinion on that anyway.

As for those saying there's an debate about it being unnatural - so are c-sections... so are antibiotics, painkillers, and glasses FFS!

I'm also indifferent toward surrogacy. I think women should be able to use their bodies however they please, for whatever purpose they want.

The world isn't overpopulated because of IVF. It's due to a lack of available education, opportunities and birth control.

The other argument that seems to crop up is that IVF isn't "natural" or is against god's will. Well neither is most modern medicine. Yet I don't see cancer patients being told that their treatment isn't ethical and they should just die quietly.

I think you have completely missed what I was saying.

But thats ok - thats your right - I never said it was easy.

I wouldn’t judge anyone for having it and would not rule out having it myself. But the health risks to mother and child are an ethical issue. https://med.umn.edu/news/research-brief-largest-study-childhood-cancer-after-ivf

This whole thread seems riddled with fallacies to me.

IVF and surrogacy are being compared in a very ignorant strawman way imo.

Also abortion vs snot using viable embryos - it's not really the same now is it?

I really can't wrap my head around how these 3 distinct topics are being muddled.

I'm anti surrogacy/ pro choice / pro ivf in case that wasn't clear.

If we are worried about the world population we should limit all families to one child, whether it be natural, IVF or surrogate. And if you already have a child from one relationship you don't get to double dip in the next one.

I know a friend of a friend who is Catholic and therefore very against ivf. All she’s ever wanted is a big family and they started young. They have lost SO many babies and if they could do ivf it would probably be ok.

No, and I know I'm going to be slaughtered for this. I'm also not a big fan of some of the other interventions we do to allow for successful births where they otherwise would not be.

In terms of IVF. If you can't have a child naturally then in my opinion that is natures way of saying there is something about your genetic make up that it doesn't want passed to the next generation. Whether that is because of the female or the male. Even if its because of cancer at a young age, there was likely something in your genetic make up that made you susceptible to it that is probably not a good idea to pass down.

Similarly, we can work medical miracles now to save pregnancies and pre term babies that never would have survived now do so.

And at the same time we have an increasing number of allergies, disabilities and special needs.

It is interesting correlation.

One thing I've always wondered about ivf is egg donation. Are the women who are donating eggs people who are financially desperate ? If they are then that's the only thing I'd be uncomfortable with. Women who have no other choice but to be paid to sell their eggs. Do they also have to go through the same regime as women who are using their own eggs ? The injections etc?

@Ididivfama

I don't see how the two are even remotely similar. Could you say a bit more?

Ivf is fine with me. Some versions of the pill let you get pg every month then shed your womb lining.

Also if a greater good didn't want you force nature then chemo, blood transfers, paracetamol, antibiotics are going against fate.

I'm a scientist. The greater good made us the apex species for a reason. ( spoiler, I don't belive in a greater good).

Life on earth is an impossible accident that is fleeting in astro physics. Everything will be burnt away when the sun dies. Everything will be lost. Live life to full. Take risks. Do the ivf. Make your life full as there's no coming back. Ever

Well apart from the blazingly obvious difference that school children and rugby players are already alive...

She’d beaten it in her very early 30’s. IVF late 30’s/early 40’s and it came back with a vengeance…your most likely right and no connection. I’m not sure how aware they were of hormone related breast cancers 25 years ago though. Maybe the advice of who is suitable for IVF is different now.

What about where a couple can conceive easily but something like a blood disorder in the woman causes her to miscarry? There’s nothing wrong with the fetus and the mother can carry to term on something simple such as blood thinners?

Conclusion from the above report:

“The most important takeaway from our research is that most childhood cancers are not more frequent in children conceived by IVF,” said Logan Spector, a professor in the Medical School and Masonic Cancer Center member. “There may be an increased risk of one class of cancers in children; however, due to the nature of our study, we could not distinguish between IVF itself versus the parents' underlying infertility. Overall, these results are reassuring to parents who've had children through IVF.”

This is a great reply!

I don't care if other people have a problem with IVF. It helped me have a family.