Any Employment Lawyers or HR people around?

[Marie2023]

I could really do with some guidance, if that’s OK.

Basically I have been bullied at work by a very senior member of staff. The Board are now involved. It is clear that me and the member of staff can no longer work together so I have offered to leave.

I have been told that I will receive a ‘generous payout’. The thing is, I don’t know what I should be expecting. Given the time of year, I may be out of work for some time.

So what does a ‘generous payout’ look like, in relation to monthly salary? Any ideas please?

Thanks.

This is nonsense op.

@Katrinawaves there’s no indication here that the OP is a demotivated employee. In fact she’s told us how hard she works for 2 people and never missed a deadline.

Yes.

You have almost no rights with less than 2 years service so if they are offering money take it and run.

Extras to negotiate are a good reference and for your lump sum to be paid as tax and NI free.

It's a small organisation (charity I'm guessing) and it's a senior member of staff - in these circumstances it's pretty common to involve board members as the only person more senior will be the chief exec

Yes - before the falling out with the other team member and the Covid email that seems to be the case.

Since then however, she has decided she can’t work any longer with one of the two people she supports, has possibly written to the Board to say that, and is just about to get herself signed off sick. I’d say that’s a fairly text book example of someone who is now demotivated!

@Katrinawaves fair enough. She is demotivated now. Anyone would be if they thought they were being bullied out of the job.

OP - you were employable a year ago, so you shouldn’t feel too despondent about being a year older now and closer to 60. I think age discrimination is still happening but what options do we have? We all age. Good luck 🤞

I don't understand why they would be due you why money? For sending you a to do list for when you return after sick leave? Doesn't seem like that should make them liable to give you £1000s payout?

Sue you any* not why! Sorry on phone so cannot edit original typo

The good reference is critical here. The op needs that if she needs another job. Even if she can’t get a good reference from them, trying to negotiate they don’t give her a bad one, is key. They cannot lie but if their view of the situation is different to hers, then she could get a reference that would make it very difficult to find another job.

ie they may say, very prickly, doesn’t like to take instruction, argues bullying if you point out errors or give instruction, overly sensitive and sees standard mails as rude, is rude to fellow employees and had to apologise. Etc

so she needs to sort the reference issue before she goes. It is hugely Important.

Thanks @Janeandme I’ve been promised a good reference.

OK you have less than 2 years service, so you need to tread carefully in what you ask for.

I would see what they offer and then go from there, but realistically, they could just get rid of you, unless you have a protected characteristic that you can prove has been used in some way discriminatory

Why did you offer to leave? Especially if you believe it will be ages before you can get another job?

Could your role be changed at all to just work for the boss, instead of the other person as well?

I wish you all the best of luck, I hope it works out for you

Why did you offer to leave? Especially if you believe it will be ages before you can get another job?

Have to say that if they want you out, OP, this means you've just made it easy for them to say 'bye then, because you're not in a strong position here. You say you've spoken to the board - what have they said? has the bullying been addressed with both parties and can you actually see yourself continuing to work there if it is?

I will say I'm not an employment solicitor or HR I do however having many years of management experience.

From what you've written it doesn't sound like bullying more demanding and someone who like to see rapid response/progress.
It maybe OP that you don't work well with that style of management, because you've worked well with the other director they are possibly trying to take a balanced approach and be kind to you whilst also sacking you.

It's certainly something we try to do at our company.

I would use this a learning experience what is it about that person's mannerisms and style that didn't work for you? Can you spot that in another potential employer?

I have to say some of our team need organising and pushing along, plus really don't like it when we do push them but otherwise they do seem to faff, they are otherwise good so we tolerate this element of them.

I would tidy up your CV and start looking.

It’s not that, I’ve worked with many far more demanding people over the years. It’s just that when I said “No, I can’t do this because I have X, Y and Z happening today” (this only happened once), she demanded I be fired.

Hi try and take the emotion out of this discussion. They have agreed to give you a package, so in my experience whatever figure you will give they will try and reduce it. So I’d suggest you ask for 9 months pay, this is to including your notice and the fact that you are being asked to leave before Christmas, and typically a new role when you are older may take at least 3 / 4 months to secure (especially in the new year an current climate).

I think they will then try and negotiate it down and you may end up with 4 or 5 months pay and ask for this to be tax free. As it’s a settlement agreement suggest you also agree a form of words for your reference. Speak to Acas as they are helpful with in terms of the whole process. Also I’d suggest you factually write down what has led up to this point. If they do give you a settlement - they should also pay for a solicitor to ensure you have been advised before you sign it.

Thanks @Flashy9. That sounds like really good advice.

I agree with the lawyers and experienced HR people on here.
If they do offer you a written agreement then they will usually offer to pay something like £300 or £500 of yiour legal costs and will want a separate solicitor to advise you on it. However as you have not been there 2 years and there is probably no discrimination etc see what they offer and go from there. If it will take you ages to get another job and the offer is low you might want to carry on working instead at the same place as financially essential so just be a bit careful before saying - right I am walking out or right I am resigning it.

Good luck. My gut feeling is that you might get an offer of about 3 months' pay or what statutory redundancy pay might be (which is not based on your normal pay but a statutory scale)/ As if you resign you may be entitled to nothing you need to be careful before walking out.

If you aren't happy with it, you can negotiate but they may stick to their guns. No harm in asking though, if you aren't happy with it.

I would be careful about following that advice - they can get rid of you without needing to pay you so an offer of a payment is settlement. Honestly, I would be surprised if they pay you any more than your notice. If you demand something as ridiculous 9 months pay, then they’re unlikely to make a good will payment.

Honestly, I would be surprised if they pay you any more than your notice. If you demand something as ridiculous 9 months pay, then they’re unlikely to make a good will payment

Given that the OP has been there less than 2 years and has already said she's offered to leave I can't see that she has any leverage for demanding months of pay. She's certainly got no basis for what that poster just upthread suggests she demands. It depends on their interpretation of 'generous, ' I guess. A couple of months salary at most and the promise of a decent reference (a promise which I hope OP has in writing).

Absolutely. It’s important to calibrate what generous means. Twice your legal entitlement is generous. Twenty times your legal entitlement is unheard of even in the most egregious cases of bad behaviour - which unpleasant though the OP found it, on a sliding scale of employer bad behaviour this is towards the lower end.

Legally OP is entitled to 2 weeks and she has effectively tendered her resignation by saying that she will not continue to work with one of those she supports. Tactically, she might have been better to leave the Board out of it, and lodge a grievance with HR and go off sick whilst the grievance was investigated. But that boat has now sailed.

My best advice would be to let the employer make the first offer and then try to see if this can be improved - but being careful not to reject the offer on the table just in case it can’t be improved.

So if they offer 3 weeks notice, the conversation goes something along these lines:

“Thank you for the offer which I’m considering. Could I check whether this includes an agreed reference and is in addition to accrued holiday pay? As we are in the run up to Christmas and it will be difficult to find alternative employment until January, is there any scope for you to increase the notice pay to 5 weeks as a gesture of good will?”

Mark any correspondence about the settlement “Without prejudice and subject to contract”.

If you are in a union, now would be a good time to call on them if you haven’t done so already. Likewise if your company has an EAP programme this often includes some legal advice on employment matters so I would use this now before you lose access to it.

Now, this is a good answer!

@Katrinawaves speaks sense!

I've years of experience as a trade union official. I wouldn't be advising you to ask for 9 months pay, that's ridiculous given your length of service and you'll be laughed out of there will little more than PILON, which you will pay NI and tax on.

You're not in a strong negotiating position, no matter what anyone suggests to you on here because you've less than 2 years service, do not appear to have any sort of winnable discrimination claim from what you've stated so far, and have already offered to leave.

I suspect you're not in a trade union, so you could seek advice from ACAS, but frankly if you leave with more than a months pay tax free (plus PILON and any holiday pay owed) you'll be doing well.

I'm sorry that you've found yourself in this position, it's hellish, but hopefully you'll get a dignified exit, with a decent reference and can then put it behind you.

I wouldn't be advising you to ask for 9 months pay, that's ridiculous given your length of service and you'll be laughed out of there will little more than PILON, which you will pay NI and tax on

I was just thinking that if OP fancies the experience of being laughed out of HR she could always try 'I'll take a package of nine months pay thanks' but being laughed at is all she'll get - esp as she has effectively already resigned.