Uni and foreign students would you say anything?

[thebraispink]

My DD is at uni doing a creative subject and basically she is having to help and support all of the foreign students with their work.

The uni have taken on so so many students who don't speak English over 60% of her course and put no translators in place, so my DD is having to help explain everything to those poor students who have broken English at best.

The uni has literally just taken all the money, it's making my DD course really dumbed down and keeping her back, it's not great for the foreign students as they are pretty out of their depth and miserable.

From my stance we are paying a shit ton for this course, and its teaching is poor and the overall experience is a bit shit.

All of these students will leave after 3 years, and take this education to their countries which is great but it leaves the UK students with a sub standard experience and shitty degree.

Should there be a limits on how many students can be from overseas? Should the uni have to provide interpreters? Is anyone else's kids in the same situation?

We are considering moving her from the uni on these grounds as she spends more time helping her peers than she does being taught.

Did they come from Greece with a thirst for knowledge?

But ultimately unless your daughter speaks their mother language then how can she really help or support them anymore than the staff unless she does the work for them?

The language fraud is an issue in Canada as well. It's apparently fairly easy to pay someone to take the tests for you. I'm sorry to hear the lecturers aren't more sympathetic but international students pay a huge amount for the same degree, so universities rely on them.

What's interesting here is rather than focus on the Uni in question and how to help your daughter assert herself, particularly with telling the teaching staff the onus is not on her to provide improvised 'English support', is that your concern and conclusion is the knock on impact on 'UK students' by 'these students'. Have you considered writing a letter to the Home Secretary?

The degree is in graphic design so the briefs that are given aren't that straightforward, so she spends time explaining in more detail the expectations of the final submission, the stages that need to follow to get marks ex.

The briefs are given out but then they have to work in groups on the main project with a 6-8 weeks timeframe.

So depending on who she is partnered with or what groups they are put in she is nurturing and explaining and supporting them.

She can't speak mandrin no but she is taking time to go over and over and explain.

What's interesting here is rather than focus on the Uni in question and how to help your daughter assert herself, particularly with telling the teaching staff the onus is not on her to provide improvised 'English support', is that your concern and conclusion is the knock on impact on 'UK students' by 'these students'. Have you considered writing a letter to the Home Secretary?

😅

I'm not sure if you read the thread that this is my onus. But I'm happy if that's what you think.

I personally don't have time to take this to the politicians as I'd rather spend my time and speak to the posters who have given some great advice.

I don't know why anyone is disputing this, I'm a lecturer and our uni absolutely takes too many students from abroad who barely scrape the language requirements and then are not immersed in English when they get here and then don't use the language support services either (perhaps embarrassed?) and they are very difficult to teach. If they socialise with others from the same place their English does not improve and they don't get the practice you would assume from 3 years in another country. It is a cash cow and I feel very very sorry for these students, many of whom are bright and meet the basic requirements but don't then get the support that their £24k a year should merit. These students then go on to get worse results than the home students, an article came out on it only last week. https://www.ft.com/content/30217f1d-257f-4826-8aba-ec9329a4ab4d

She definitely needs to speak up and voice her concerns, it's not fair she should have to do this. I think I'd end up doing the project alone and explaining the reason why. If these students cannot access the course and work independently that is the universities problem.

I can entirely believe you OP. I deal with Chinese students from our local Uni and in some cases their English is very poor.

IME (former academic in uk uni) English language requirements vary by course and uni, eg maths or visual arts based course likely to have lower requirements than an essay-heavy subject.

I used to tell students not to help other students too much when they told me other students were struggling because I didn’t want my fluent English students (not necessarily Uk students) to be working as unpaid teaching assistants as it seemed unfair on them. There are also significant differences in the expected roles of teachers and students in different countries and group work might be a challenge for this reason as well if students are not used to working in this way and putting forward their own opinions publicly in class.

I don’t think your daughter should feel obliged to help them and particularly not if helping with assessed work might constitute collusion. If she feels the pace of the class is affected she should say something, perhaps through a course rep if they have one. They could switch the groups around more or have student chosen groups sometimes.

To the OP & their daughter:

If the issues are arising in the context of assessed group work (being summative assessment that counts towards your actual grade, not formative work which is just for feedback), such that you can't just "opt out" of providing assistance, then it sounds like you need to raise this in writing with the convenor of that module/subject (copying your lecturer, if that person is different from the convenor). Please be polite in writing to this person, as they will not be responsible for the admissions decisions of the university. Frame your email in terms of the stress this is putting you under, and the fairness of the assessment. If you are not happy with the response, the next person to approach should be the Vice Dean or Associate Dean for Teaching/Education in your School/Faculty.

If, on the other hand, the issues are arising in the context of groups being used as part of the course teaching, it may be that you might start with another verbal discussion with your lecturer. Again, think carefully about how you frame your concerns - for instance, that it is stressful because (1) you feel under pressure to help these students, and (2) it feels unfair to them. You might say that you're not getting as much out of the module as you would like, so it's to the detriment of your own learning. (Do not, on the other hand, say "I'm paying a lot for this course", as this will distract from your point.) Ask if there are any ways to change the situation, e.g., by allocating the groups differently. Try to stay calm and polite. If you are not happy with the response then make a written note of what was said, and then put something in writing (starting with the course convenor, and then the individuals as noted above if you're still not happy).

And some other general thoughts for anyone who is still reading:

University funding in the UK is in a dire situation. Many (maybe even most) undergraduate students are loss-making: it costs more to teach them than they pay in fees. This is particularly the case for laboratory-based subjects. It is related to the fact that UG fees have been frozen at £9,250 per year for a very long time.

There are two main responses to this, and many universities do both:

1. Recruiting huge undergraduate cohorts in cheaper, popular degrees like law & business, on the basis that certain costs are fixed. You don't make much money on any given student, but you teach so many that you at make some money.

1. Increasing the size of cohorts in, and offering new, Masters degrees, including online programmes.

In both cases, foreign students are very attractive, given that foreign students are often charged more than home students. The differential is particularly high for UG students - in some courses, home students pay £9,250 per year and foreign students £20-40k.

The point is that there is a pressure to take foreign students at both the UG and graduate level. If we turned off the tap of foreign students, many universities would be bankrupt overnight. We can discuss whether universities are spending their money wisely – there are lots of issues with centralised administrative bloat and vanity projects. But the point is that, at the moment, these students are essential to keep the show on the road.

I believe the OP, as I've taught numerous students in Masters programs who simply don't have the English language proficiency to follow what is going on. In terms of numbers, I'd say that this has been up to 10-15% of the cohort - not the majority, but a significant minority. These students may be able to pass their English test, and may be able to get by in their "regular" lives, but that is very different from the sort of language skills that are required for academic study. It is very difficult as an academic to deal with these students, as you really want to help all students feel engaged and supported, but we simply don't have the time (and possibly the skills) to help this group of students.

Professor here, at a leading university in the UK.

I do not recognise what you describe at all.

But, what an interesting thread. Almost as though it opens up a discussion on immigration, HE and foreign nationals, hey?

Yes, UAL

@Combusting if you don't regonise it then why waste time and comment?

Thank you this is so helpful. And I agree the money comment would be left out, I out it in simply from frustration as the London costs are so high.

The way it needs framing is incredibly helpful.

Fuck that she has a choice. I know people say there are stringent English exams for foreign students but I'm not sure. Ds1 just graduated after doing a vocational degree (construction industry) and he said there were international students who didn't have the English to participate in seminars nor could they make conversation. However they were getting 2:1s in their coursework. They will then go back to their home countries with a British degree which gives a false representation of their ability.
I actually did a post graduate certificate along with a friend who is not a native speaker. She later confessed to me she got someone to write her assignments .

Thank you, I think the collaborative nature of her course may be an issue in itself as they are marked as a group on some projects.

My DD had the same thing as did some of her friends on other courses. PM me the name of the uni if you like? It's really not fair on them. Esp in group projects. And yes the uni will say they all have to have good English but don't check. And some of the people my DD knew had huge emotional issues relating to the language issues/ loneliness associated.

But if the international students come to UK universities with poor English, especially if they got someone else to take the language test, then how do they expect to get through their degrees? It can’t be a surprise to them that they then find things really difficult?

This is something I know nothing about so I’m curious.

The lecturer on the thread I linked to above was saying she is under pressure to pass them regardless. Either that or is work done by AI.

@EmpressaurusOfCats Until recently once a person was in the UK on a Student visa they could then easily switch to a Skilled Worker visa. And would not be tested on English again as they would automatically be deemed to have met it because they had a Student visa. I have seen a lot of people come to the UK and then move onto the Skilled Worker visa without finishing their course.

This has now been changed, and a person must either have successfully completed their course or at least have a job offer which only begins after their course end date has arrived.

Are there other students in her case? It may be good for them to collectively voice their concerns to the department, for e.g. via the staff-student consultation committee, or through talking to the director of studies, or failing that the head of school.

All pretty shocking and I think believable. Really students not meeting the standard should be asked to leave but that won't happen because of the money.