Uni and foreign students would you say anything?

[thebraispink]

My DD is at uni doing a creative subject and basically she is having to help and support all of the foreign students with their work.

The uni have taken on so so many students who don't speak English over 60% of her course and put no translators in place, so my DD is having to help explain everything to those poor students who have broken English at best.

The uni has literally just taken all the money, it's making my DD course really dumbed down and keeping her back, it's not great for the foreign students as they are pretty out of their depth and miserable.

From my stance we are paying a shit ton for this course, and its teaching is poor and the overall experience is a bit shit.

All of these students will leave after 3 years, and take this education to their countries which is great but it leaves the UK students with a sub standard experience and shitty degree.

Should there be a limits on how many students can be from overseas? Should the uni have to provide interpreters? Is anyone else's kids in the same situation?

We are considering moving her from the uni on these grounds as she spends more time helping her peers than she does being taught.

Is by any chance your daughter at uni in a town starting with W ??? in southern England?
If somi would believe what she is saying.

titchy
Lots of Chinese students doing creative degrees? Yeah sure....

Yes, UAL

You'll see I did check the data and yes, there are indeed a lot of Chinese students at UAL (20% of the student population). I'm surprised tbh.

OP has already said which uni it is

No she's not at Winchester.

Woah. Universities do absolutely have to verify language qualifications. They check them against passport details and UKVI won't issue a visa unless this happens. Even with a visa there are additional checks at borders. Fraud happens, yes, but it's not from people who actually enrol at university - these are people who create a false identity, get themselves a student visa and then never actually study. They just ... disappear.

Wrt the Chinese students, most are sponsored by their government. So in addition to the checks that UK universities do these kids (and their families) have been checked within an inch of their lives before buying their plane tickets by the Chinese government. I don't think I have to detail how thorough the Chinese government's checking process is.

So there are very very few people at UK universities who don't have English language skills.

What may be happening is chatter in mother tongue, which is something that academic staff need guidance on. In which case the correct approach is to address it through the proper academic channels.

She's at a London uni

I'm really not sure but I do wonder if they head for creative course as they are seen as softer easier subjects maybe?

But the poor students are finding it hard.

I once sat on a disciplinary panel at university. A masters student was accused of plagiarism. The student had such poor English skills they had to have a translator. They didn't speak a word in English for the whole session.

Fraud/cheating on IELTS is so widespread. Students obtain false certificates or get someone else to sit their test etc etc.

OP's scenario is totally believable.

Yes there is a group of them who are in her same situation, so based on all the really helpful advice I'm going to give her the link to this thread and see if they can take this further.

If only to stop their own marks and grades being potentially lowered.

Wow. I feel now that my DD isn't even telling me the whole story she has said some of them can't even speak a word but I did think she maybe being a bit dramatic.

Students from China are required to have IELTS, the minimum qualification will vary depending on the course but it should be enough to understand the lecturer and other students.

@Holopola this just isn't true! I have taught many many international students, often Chinese, who don't have the language skills to interact with other students, take part in seminars, some find even speaking in public very very difficult, because they are used to a different educational system and what we reward isn't necessarily rewarded in their home countries. I have also had some excellent Chinese students, who have great communication skills, they tend to be those in my courses with a lot of other English speakers (so our other international students tend to be US, European and their language skills are in general stronger) and so I guess their environment is all English speaking even if we all have different accents (a lot of the staff are international at my uni as well, up to 40% of lecturers).

Our uni needs to provide integrated courses with academic English in them as a compulsory part of the course, I know someone who did one and it was ace, they did academic English for the first term, then a two long term Masters in their chosen subject, very international group but from different countries, deliberately mixed in halls of residence/groups of study so that there was a lot of English spoken as a common language, wherever people came from. Our uni offers a half-hearted support for these students and they feel too embarrassed to attend (as they are probably already aware they are struggling with the Eng writing), there's also not enough social opportunities and all round support. My friend is currently teaching on a course where about 10 of her students are Chinese and one not Chinese and so far the failure rate is very high (it's a Masters), it's a social science, and she's having to go back and restructure and change the assignments for future years as what she normally does isn't working at all. Unis do take the cash and they should be reinvesting these in the specific needs of these students, as with just a little more support and a little more thought, they can do really well. They have to be both bright and have some level of English to be here and we need to then help them to thrive in our uni, not just take their money and be all sorry when they turn up in welfare services out of extreme stress.

Yes, this struck me as unusual. Creative degrees from an English university are not going to be valued by many Chinese families.

The level needed to read your average Masters text is much much higher than the requirement to get into uni, sadly, plus there's a learning curve when you go to a new country and for Masters students in particular, the one year doesn't serve them well. Undergraduates for three years might get there by the end of the second year or third year- I also have quite a few ethnically Chinese students (HK students) who have been educated in the UK prior to uni and they tend to perform exactly like the other students ability wise, unsurprisingly. I have helped many of them get great jobs, writing references for them, I've also written references explaining their learning curve as they often reach their potential later than domestic students and so their early marks don't reflect their true ability which is higher.

Fraud/cheating on IELTS is so widespread.

This is just not true. UKVI level IELTS tests are conducted in person at long established British Council centres staffed by UK nationals. These Centres often have consulate links. They are not fly by night operations. Other IELTS tests are verified using passport details.

Other EL tests have been subject to fraud over the years but as I said before this is in conjunction with passport fraud. It's not a case of a person taking a test and the other person taking credit for it. It's a case of creating an identity to get into the country, same as traffickers do for work visas and so on. Nobody is going to pay £££s for a bum test and then £28k a year to sit in a lecture theatre listening to things they don't understand.

My question too. That's a GDPR breach. She should have the names of her group, obviously.

My students often come to tell me X or Y has done no work/not turned up for group meetings. We take notice.

If a presentation is graded, they will not get a grade if they can't do it. Otherwise it's for practice and that may be nerve wracking in your second or third language of course.

@viques I do have some insight here as I work in the creative industries and lived worked in Asia, in the late 90s - I agree the families didn't used to put emphasis on creative industry degrees but that has changed in the last 15 years.

The visas for ex-pat creatives are being revoked so the Industry's are less ex-pat lead.

I wasn't surprised by the level of foreign students in London I'm shocked by their lack of English.

🤣🤣🤣

@Holopola how else do you explain these students accessing degree courses at UK institutions without the necessary English language skills?

It's not just one or two, it's so common. From my uni days a while ago to friends who work in university academia.

They all say their language skills are verified, but it's just not true, it can't be.

I'm a bit stuck on the idea that you think you can tell where people are from on the basis of names on a register, OP.

I'm not disputing whether or not there are lots of students from mainland China on your dd's course. I don't doubt that there are.

But your statement that you can tell where they're from just by looking at a list of names is just silly. There are plenty of British people with Chinese surnames and/or first names. Surely you know this?

@SausageAndEggSandwich I think there's probably a large degree of mother tongue chat, like I say : it's not that people don't have the language skills (otherwise they would fail). More that they prefer to communicate in their home language because it's easier and more natural and they're mostly socialising with their compatriots outside of class - same as anyone does.

@worstofbothworlds so this is the register she has? Her group of which 60% have Chinese names.

Allowing for the fact potentially 10% will be Chinese students from the UK or other countries with perfect English I can't work out why this is such a sticking point on the overall thread?

I went to two London art schools (for BA and MA) 10-15 years ago. For both it was 50%+ international students, of which about 15% were Asian. Neither school was CSM, but one was similar level of reputation.

The majority of the Asian students absolutely didn't have good enough English. Creative courses rely a lot on group work, and showing your work in a group setting and getting feedback. The group feedback was pointless - they could neither explain their work, nor understand the feedback they were getting. And obviously couldn't give feedback to others. Written work was a very small part of the course, no idea how they did with that.

It was ok (for me) as the percentage of students without good English overall on the course was low, but I can imagine it would have been a real issue if it was a lot higher.

The students can come from very wealthy Chinese families. If they are female, they may not be expected to earn a living once they get back to China. But a creative degree from the UK from a brand name London university (UAL) is prestigious. I am sure they also enjoy their stint in London.

Yes, why are people fixated on this small point.

UK born ethnic Chinese are a tiny minority in the UK. There is even smaller minority of ethnic Chinese people from Australia, US, Canada, Singapore and Hong Kong. Their English will be of a high standard and there is no mistaking them from PRC nationals. Their surnames may not be Chinese sounding either, as often one parent is non-Chinese.