Really concerned about incident at nursery

[EvenLess]

Hello, I posted a thread a few weeks ago about DD (nearly 4) and her poor behaviour at nursery. I went in and met them, and we agreed some behaviour management strategies. Her behaviour at home is much better than it was a few months ago after a difficult start to the year for our family (bereavement, inquest into my DF's death, redundancy and more...). We've been working hard on emotional regulation.

DD was misbehaving and hitting/pushing other children - I am not excusing this, I continue to make clear our expectations of her behaviour and have spoken to her about this. However, the nursery decided to punish her by removing the Halloween dress my husband allowed her to wear to nursery that day... And she had no top underneath. I have heard 2 different stories about whether she was immediately dressed in her spare clothes or was going around topless. She did have her leggings on.

I'm really unhappy- I don't want her hitting others, but this seems humiliating and not a good message to her from a safeguarding perspective. I have told nursery I never want this to happen again, and have rung the HV for advice, who was also concerned. What would you do? I'm about to start a new job. Do I take her out of the nursery and keep her at home?

Why put all the onus on OP? She's not in the nursery so the amount she can do to manage her daughter's behaviour when she is there is very limited indeed. The nursery staff are supposed to be the professionals her.e Shouldn't they have been concentrating on strategies for helping with the SEND they suspect OP's daughter to have rather than indulging in grossly unprofessional "punishments" like this?

I work with kids and that is a bonkers , inappropriate punishment.

First of all , the safeguarding issues.
Second of all, it's completely unrelated to the behaviour and as such unreasonable and pointless.

Staff working in a nursery should know better than this.
The fact that there are different accounts from the staff too, would raise a red flag for me too.

Do they have CCTV OP? Can you ask to view it? Also what was the behaviour that required this punishment?

The only reason I can imagine asking a child to take off a costume would be because they were behaving in a silly way due to wearing it that was having significant impact on the group in some way.

We also ask them to take off costumes if we are doing particular activities where a costume might not be appropriate to wear (painting, sports activities etc). All our parents bring in changes of clothes so they would immediately have clothing back on if a costume was taken off.

The main thing is to talk to the nursery and get a satisfactory response as to what actually happened. If they can't then it would be worth considering a new nursery.

I haven't read the ft but you are right to follow your instincts here. The nursery seem to have handled this badly..I find it hard to imagine removing a child's dress is reasonable punishment. I would look for another place unless she loves ves going and they can justify this way of dealing with a four year old. You are a good mum wanting to keep your little one safe.

The stuff about a three year old not understanding makes it almost worse, not better. Internalised feelings of shame that are hard to unravel as you get older as you don’t have full understanding of why you feel that way.

OP, at least you know it happened so you can talk it though appropriately with her.

Well it can be if the poor behaviour was related to the clothing. So if a child dressed as a pirate is going around bashing people because they're a pirate, then removing the costume makes perfect sense.

@EvenLess that is a very bizarre punishment and I would not be at all happy either. For those saying it’s the same as removing a toy - it really isn’t. It’s like removing someone’s trousers because they’ve misbehaved. I would be fuming. Speak to the manager and say you want an accurate description of why this was meant to be an effective punishment and which staff member chose to do this. Give your reasons for upset clearly and concisely. Try not to get emotional (I would be livid too) but you want them to see that this was entirely inappropriate.

If this happened to my daughter, I admit I would raise merry hell. To let a small child go topless is not on at all; they had no right to do that. Im angry for you.

This is even worse because it’s not even taking away a “privilege” they were just her clothes.

I’m with you, OP (I was before this update but think it’s even more appalling now.) It sends a terrible message to children that if they behave poorly their clothes will be taken off. It is never an appropriate punishment. I would complain very strongly about this, including potentially writing to OFSTED. And I’d be looking for a new nursery ASAP.

I've never been sexually assaulted and this punishment makes me feel very uneasy. It's completely inappropriate and I'd be removing my child straight away and reporting them. I'd believe the staff member over the manger too that the child was top less.

OP I'm so sorry you've had such a rubbish year and that you're getting the usual smug, shitty, clueless responses from the keyboard warriors on here.

I think the only time I would accept removal of clothes as an appropriate management would be if it was an absolute rock solid logical consequence for the poor behaviour. For example, as pp have said eg if it was stimulating undesirable pretend play or she was using an element of it to harm a child. Even then I would expect removal of the costume to be done in private and for an appropriate change of clothes to be provided. If nursery's justification for doing it is anything less than this then it'd be a red card situation for me. My child wouldn't be going back there ever again.

You say she's improving at home but not school. Why is this? What's your gut instinct telling you about this nursery? Never be afraid to go with your gut OP. It's there for a reason. I just knew my dd's first cm wasn't right for her. On paper my issues would have seemed really trivial. My DH supported me when I said I wanted to move her but with a bit of an eyeroll. We moved her to a nursery and I couldn't be happier that we did. It was worlds apart and she thrived there. I genuinely believe that if I'd kept her with the cm I would've been dealing with a much less happy and confident child going into reception and might even have had some behavioural issues but she's now in Y1 and still thriving.

Best of luck OP. You sound like an amazing mum who's being really thoughtful about how to help your dd. Screw the tw£ts on here trying to drag you down xx

Sending love @EvenLess

The sanctimonious wankers really have been out in force on threads today

I’m so sorry for the year you’ve had op, you really are doing your best. It’s absolutely disgusting behaviour from them, I’d find a new nursery if possible. I remember been 7 and a male teacher taking my sparkly top off in the cloakroom because it had glitter on ( my mum had put it on) I still remember this at 40. It’s not an appropriate for any child, ever.

Appropriate and consistently applied strategies at nursery and at home will of course be key, even more so for children with SEND.

Children with SEND aren’t exempt from rules around behaviour though. Going round hitting other children on a regular basis is simply unacceptable.

My point was that the child’s parent was appearing to focus her attention on the impact of the punishment on her own child, and listed excuses for her daughter’s poor behaviour. I don’t think the parent is wrong to query the nature of the punishment, but a combative approach will not help her child in the long run, nor the other children in the short term. Both matters need to be addressed, and an engaged and united approach to behaviour management strategies is needed first and foremost.

One thing that made me wonder @EvenLess…when my son first started at a pre-school his behaviour was terrible because the setting wasn’t right. When I attend with him I got a bad feeling but thought it was because I was uneasy about him going into childcare. But he was really unhappy so I tried a different setting and bang, different child.

I am wondering if the setting isn’t right for your daughter. If this is how they ‘punish’ (awful word) a small child then it makes me wonder what else goes on there. Maybe part of the reason she acts out is because she isn’t happy there. A childminder may be much better, more focus, smaller setting. I hope you find an alternative? But I think you’re right to trust your gut instinct. And even if there was nothing in it, you no longer trust them and the most important thing you can have with your childcare setting is trust.

I agree, OP, I would be very unhappy if a nursery did this to my toddler. Taking a child’s clothes off as punishment is not appropriate. It doesn’t matter what they had on underneath. It’s humiliating, cruel and does not teach the child any nice lesson about their autonomy over their body/clothing or the link between behaviour and clothing.

Indeed. In my very long life I've never heard of such a punishment and it is definitely a safeguarding concern

Massively a safeguarding concern. Completely unacceptable. I'm personally saddened and concerned that so many posters think this is OK. I'd be removing her from the nursery -- you might find she's lashing out due to feelings of vulnerability there. I doubt this is the first time they've done something inappropriate.

PS I actually think you're underreacting OP. I'd be reporting this incident to Ofsted.

OP I've already replied upthread but just remembered an incident last week in my nursery at work. A boy spilled water on himself and although it wasn't much I brought him to the toilets to change him, taking his clean clothes bag with me. He insisted that I make his wet trousers dry but refused to wear the new ones. I repeatedly explained they needed to dry so he could wear the replacement ones until they were dry. He was angry and wouldn't accept this. I brought him back in the room but he pulled off his pants and hid under a table in his underpants. He could have told his parents I pulled his trousers off him, another child could say I made him wear his underpants in the classroom, a colleague could look in the window and believe I punished him by stripping him off and putting him under a table. All of which are incorrect interpretations. 3 yr olds are generally irrational, some more than others. It seems to me its a lot more likely this is a nothing silly incident. I'm sorry you are upset OP but please don't mess up your job over this. Give it a few days talk to the staff and then consider moving her. Reporting a safeguarding issue seems unnecessary. If she is having behaviour problems I don't think a sudden move to a new environment is the best for her. Good luck OP

Weird and random punishment and not appropriate.

It sounds to me like the adult involved was at the end of their tether and just did the first thing they thought of eg "if you do that again I'm going to take your lovely dress" rather than followed the behaviour policy.

I think this is shocking. Regardless of what a child has done, removing clothes is absurd. The “punishment” had no relation to the incident at all. Young children can have consequences that do not involve having their clothes taken off! Also, it is not like removing a toy. Halloween is something most children celebrate and get excited about, so doing that to your child alone was to isolate her. I’d be furious if that happened to my child.

I’d talk to a member of staff who was there to find out exactly what happened. Children can come up with their own version of events but in this case, I’d be seeking clarification. If the dress was taken off as a punishment, I’d be taking it to management and definitely consider moving her.

A member of staff also reported this to the op. I'm pretty sure the member of staff isn't irrational or recalling the incident incorrectly. It's frightening that you work with preschool children and think this is a silly incident.

Two members of staff told the OP they took it off her as punishment for poor behaviour. Then one of those members of staff said she was left with no top on.

Edited - this was a response to @Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong. Surely as someone who works with children you can see how inappropriate this is?

I agree. It’s totally wrong.

There is a trend on Mumsnet for posters to lay into an OP, whatever the circumstances, as a way of making them feel superior/better/fuck knows. I imagine a lot of it is that, rather than actually believing a teach should remove a child’s clothing as punishment.

An appropriate consequence of trying to harm other children is to be taken away from them and told that it is because people don't like being hurt. Taking off their clothes is in no way related to what happened, so there is no learning to be had. Just humiliation and loss. I would be very upset of this was my child.