Really concerned about incident at nursery

[EvenLess]

Hello, I posted a thread a few weeks ago about DD (nearly 4) and her poor behaviour at nursery. I went in and met them, and we agreed some behaviour management strategies. Her behaviour at home is much better than it was a few months ago after a difficult start to the year for our family (bereavement, inquest into my DF's death, redundancy and more...). We've been working hard on emotional regulation.

DD was misbehaving and hitting/pushing other children - I am not excusing this, I continue to make clear our expectations of her behaviour and have spoken to her about this. However, the nursery decided to punish her by removing the Halloween dress my husband allowed her to wear to nursery that day... And she had no top underneath. I have heard 2 different stories about whether she was immediately dressed in her spare clothes or was going around topless. She did have her leggings on.

I'm really unhappy- I don't want her hitting others, but this seems humiliating and not a good message to her from a safeguarding perspective. I have told nursery I never want this to happen again, and have rung the HV for advice, who was also concerned. What would you do? I'm about to start a new job. Do I take her out of the nursery and keep her at home?

Yep. And I’d bet £500 that the nursery worker who did it has either been a victim of abuse in the past or had a really weird relationship with her own parents. Who even thinks to remove a dress as a punishment?! Zillion other things the nursery could have done. They need urgent safeguarding tuition.

She is 3. It is a nursery, she is not a criminal. She entitled to wear whatever the fuck she likes if there is no uniform and she is safe in it.

Your child sounds like they are having a very difficult time but has also become very difficult to manage (I imagine aged 4 she is quite "old" at the nursery? and behaviour expectations do change as the children get older) that said there is absolutely no way I'd be happy with the punishment - regardless of whether she had a vest on or not.

By all means remove her from the Halloween party / activities taking place if she had been lashing out at other children but taking her costume off of her is not on.

Regardless of whether she was dressed in her spare clothes immediately, trust has been broken and you can;t really keep her there anymore?

If they took her out of the room to change her from her Halloween costume into ordinary clothes, that's fine and a reasonable punishment. If she is behaving as badly as you suggest she is, then it's not unreasonable to punish her by not letting her join in a fun thing like a Halloween fancy dress day. That isn't 'punishing a child by stripping her in front of everyone'.

If they undressed her in front of all the other kids and/or had her wandering around in leggings with no top on, then that is obviously a very different thing, and a lot more problematic.

At the moment, it sounds like you don't really know what really happened, and have assumed that the worst case scenario must be the truth. But you don't know that's how it happened so you need to step back here and find out more before you decide whether to take this further.

Agree it's not a consequential punishment. It it's hardly 'very odd'. Removing privileges is very common as I'm sure you know.

She is not yet 4 @Crunchymum. Basically everyone on this thread has failed to read the OP properly and believes this child is older than she is.

This thread has also confirmed some of my thoughts that MN in general has some very extreme and draconian attitudes when it comes to punishment. So many people projecting beliefs that I’m sure didn’t apply to their own children when they were little.

No, I'd lose my shit over this. Fancy dress is clothing if worn to nursery that day. Would have been different if she had come in in normal clothing that morning and then added a cape or something on top from the fancy dress rack in nursery. But essentially that was her clothing for the day. So no it was not an appropriate decision on the nursery staffs behalf, and it doesn't promote dignity, self esteem or respect which need to be promoted while disciplining children. In fact I'd see this as a safeguarding concern

I'd be asking for a written breakdown of exactly what happened during the incident and why, then depending on what information you get, I'd be raising a complaint and asking for it to be fully investigated and an explanation given as to why the agreed behaviour management strategies weren't used. Consistency and clear boundaries are essential in dealing with behaviour issues so if they'd agreed a strategy with you that's what should have happened so everyone is acting in the same way. Unless there as something about the costume that was causing a safety risk to your child or another child I see no reason for the clothing to be removed.

Removing a child's clothing as punishment is not acceptable. What is their behaviour policy? Did they follow it?

No childcare provider should ever be removing clothing as a punishment. I'd make a complaint using the nurserys process, removing her from the nursery and contacting Ofsted tbh. It doesn't matter what the clothing was it's completely inappropriate.

Removing privileges? You think wearing clothes to nursery is a privilege? Every time a child is naughty you think an item of their clothes should be removed and replaced with a different item of clothing? What about next year in Reception in uniform? What clothes should she have removed and what should they replace them with?

I think the 'punishment' is wrong, but it's possible both for her to have been re-dressed straight away and to have run around topless. Eg - adult takes the Halloween dress off but before the adult can get the spare tshirt ready to put on, DD runs off to play somewhere and refuses to come back to the changing area or stop playing to put the new top on.

That's a really strange way to punish a child. Why didn't they just have her sit on a step?

You are massively overestimating the reasoning powers of young children, and projecting a totally hypothetical conclusion from an incident that a three year old (sorry, I was taking it that she was four) would be unlikely to have any future memory of, let alone taking away a message that only an adult is capable of forming.

I don't say that I think it was appropriate, and I'm sure there were other ways of dealing with the situation, but I think there's an awful lot of hand wringing and angst about 'red flags' and 'safeguarding' over a relatively minor incident.

The op isn't even sure what exactly happened.

Do you think that, generally, nurseries should be run in a similar way to prisons?

You are massively overestimating the reasoning powers of young children, and projecting a totally hypothetical conclusion from an incident that a three year old (sorry, I was taking it that she was four) would be unlikely to have any future memory of, let alone taking away a message that only an adult is capable of forming.

I wouldn’t say that defending an action performed on a three year old, with them being too young to understand the ramifications, is making the point you’re hoping for.

I’d remove based on this mainly: two different accounts. Surely the key worker wouldn’t imagine and make up that she was walking around without a top on?

As for removing clothes, yes I agree it could be a safeguarding concern if a normal dress or trousers. Eg when we teach children parts of their body are private. But it sounds like she was wearing a costume of sorts. Tbh, they’d be better off having a rule of no Halloween costumes if you ask me.

I work in Ed and the sanction doesn’t seem to match the behaviour - unless she was whacking someone across the head with a fair wand or something!

Removing clothes off any sort should not be a punishment. I can understand why this has distressed you.

It’s also very concerning, that despite working with you and your daughter on her behaviour, this seemingly random punishment was plucked from the air when she misbehaved. If behaviour is an issue, there should be crystal clear consequences and these should be known to your daughter already.

I think you would be entirely justified in removing your daughter due to the nature of the punishment and also due to the fact that they are not supporting your daughter with her behavioural challenges.

Take her out of the nursery. I completely agree with your mindset of teaching her that if she is naughty an adult can take her clothes off. What if she had said no, would they have carried on? Just because she’s 3 doesn’t mean she shouldn’t know consent! Fair enough if they were doing it for her benefit such as putting her into dry clothes but they weren’t.

I also don’t like the two different accounts, someone is lying to you about your child, potentially to cover something up that is a safeguarding issue. What else would they cover up to save some hassle or a complaint?

Stop gaslighting her, everyone. She has every right to be concerned and investigate. When you send your child to childcare, you are putting immense trust in other people to care for your child with all the care and dedication you would. You want full assurance that your child is safe and happy there.

So staff took her dress off due to her behaviour

It wasn't a costume for dressing up event

Just what she wore for that day

To me that is a serious safe guard red flag

You don't remove children's clothes for being naughty

Only time if wet /very dirty and changed into clean clothes asap

Did the key worker write down what happened

I am amazed at the responses condoning this. It is a totally inappropriate punishment that disregards your child's human dignity.

I could not leave my child to be looked after by people who thought this was appropriate.

She's nearly 4. same difference
@EvenLess

I think your DD may benefit from some time with you before another childcare solution/ease it in slowly. Good luck and hope you find somewhere suitable for her.

I don’t think everyone has misread the OP and think the wee girl is older than she is.

Don’t you mean some people have?

Agree with this.