“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

Umm... I really don't get why you think feminism was built on the oppression of black women. Can you explain exactly why you think this?

Nobody is willing to explain anything on here, unless we want to PM them

Funny that

I did notice. I’m sure everyone is equally interested in the answer though.

Why do I need to explain the dangers of the “strong black woman” trope when it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread? If you’re that interested in it, you can do your own research or write to me directly. This conversation is specifically about the word “Karen”. “Strong black woman” has absolutely nothing to do with that.

@DoktorPeppa Nobody is willing to explain anything on here, unless we want to PM them

Search my username on this thread. You will see I have explained everything relevant to this thread in great detail. “Funny that” you’ve barely engaged with any of it.

Well obviously you won’t believe me, but next time a group of youths practically run me down on their bikes I really don’t give a damn what colour they are - I’m still going to tell them to get off the pavement.

And when one of them said “fuck off Karen” and the rest of them laughed, I didn’t wonder for one moment whether this was because they thought I was being racist.

Mainly because they were all white, and all male.

@IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism At this point I’m genuinely confused. Did you misread my post that you quoted?

I think you were insinuating that I had been called “Karen” because I was being racist, or that I could expect to be called “Karen” if I had challenged a person of colour?

Apologies if that’s not what you meant.

I’m just reading one of Jenny Eclair’s books. She makes a good point about middle aged women reaching a stage in life where they are just not not prepared to tolerate people’s shitty behaviour anymore. They start telling it how it is, calling it out, and that’s a positive thing. Now that clearly upsets some people, these pesky women daring to challenge the litter dropper, the cyclist on the pavement, the poor service in the restaurant etc.. But luckily we are also beyond caring about being judged! We are comfortable and confident in our decision making. The interesting thing is, I think that not only pisses off some men but also some (perhaps younger?) women…..

You don't need my permission. As long as someone is not defending a racist, I am likely to support their objection to such put downs.

@IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism No, that’s not what I meant. Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that I am aware there are times when Karen is used as a misogynistic slur, and in the example you gave it can only be a misogynistic slur as it was a group of white kids. Call that shit out as you see fit.

But if a black person calls you a “Karen”, just take a moment to reflect on whatever led to that situation and ask yourself if there is anything you have done which may have been perceived as a racial attack by others. When black people are using the term, it is more likely than not that they are using it in the racial sense. It could be that you weren’t even conscious of how your actions may have been an extension of your white privilege, so just check on that. That’s all.

Why do you think that is?

Thinking back to being a 20-something (not tooo long ago but going back 10 years ;) ), I judged women over 30 and middle aged women especially for being unattractive. (Yeah what a nob 🤦🏻… and certainly wasn’t some bombshell, just average young woman.) Wrt the way older women were confident, would speak up and assert themselves, and just seemed to know what to do and say in a given situation, I was pretty in awe and wondered how I would ever get to the point of being able to do that

I agree with this.

The white privilege is hanging out of your posts.

Not all white women will be problematic as has been stated over and over again on this thread, but there are a lot who's behaviour is problematic and it's done under the guise of 'assertiveness'. Why should anyone have to deal with that? As a presumably white presenting person it's your (and my) responsibility to make sure that the way we are walking through the world isn't shitting on black women in the process. It doesn't mean we need to sit at home baking cakes, it means recognising the power we hold, the harm we can cause and being mindful of that in how we conduct ourselves. It's not black peoples responsibility to "deal with it" when someone is racist. Its the white person's responsibility to not be racist. I'm not sure why you find this so hard to grasp but I'm guessing it's because you lack empathy. Because that's what's at the core of this.

Again.. what has any of this to do with racism?

In many areas who do you think were minding the children while white women went out to work? In a lot of cases it was under paid and under recognised black women who provided that care at the expense of time with their own children. If they hadn't been there as practically free labour it would have been much harder for many white women to be able to sustain full time jobs. How many jobs do you think went to white women who acted as gatekeeper to help other white women get ahead at the direct expense of qualified black women. How many white women in the workplace do you think take credit for ideas pitched by women of colour to make themselves look better. It happens all the time. I'd suggest reading into intersectional feminism, there are plenty of black female writers out there who've laid this out.

OK, I get that.

I think there are two different "Karen" concepts going on here, one is about white tears being weaponised by racist middle aged women, and it is legit and a serious issue, and the other concept is pure misogynistic tosh perpetrated by incel mama's boys on Reddit. The latter one deserves to be ignored and treated with contempt as the rubbish it is.

But one has nothing to do with the other. Being entitled, assertive or confident positive things unless rudeness or unkindness are involved.

The "I want to see your manager" Reddit creation with the chavvy obviously working class haircut (rooted in class snobbery; in contrast many service workers are actually university students) comes in all colours and ethnic background . I've seen Asian, Hispanic, black Karens too.

An entitled assertive attitude is not linked to colour. Age and class possibly?

'And I didn't get where I am by stepping over anyone, quite the opposite. I was helped by other strong women and I helped others myself. This is what I'm proud of, not that someone had to be weaker in order for me to be stronger.

I think in part this is where the problems happening in this thread are. People assuming that all criticisms of middle aged strong white women apply directly to them. I'm a middle aged, strong white woman. I also know I've done the work to educate myself to not be racist and too be aware of the power I hold so I can manage that as is my responsibility to do so. So I don't find it offensive because I'm able to recognise that while i hold myself accountable, some other strong white middle aged women can be highly problematic. Too many people on this thread taking the content as direct personal criticism.

Possibly because some posters are levelling direct personal criticism.

Are you from the US Lavender? I came from a midlands market town and any childcare (not that there was much) was from someone else white. My kids’ nursery and school had a mix of black and white paid nursery workers/teachers. I used to have both black and white teenage girls babysitting (and yes they were paid the same).

@DoktorPeppa I would absolutely commend you for raising your dd in this way but i would also gently suggest that you teach her about the privilege she has as a white person in the world so she's not practising unconscious bias and microaggression in the process. For me it's just taking what you're already doing that one step further. I think if you're not actively parenting your child in a way that challenges racism and stereotypes then you're still leaving all of the onus on black parents to teach their children that they have to walk through life a little differently to how your dd will walk through life.

That is not 'racism'. And I'm one who does object to both the ageism and sexism embedded within that term.

But it isn't just about white women. the term was originally coined in the US to refer specifically to a white woman being racist toward a person of colour. As ever, such as the misappropriation of #BlackLivesMatter to refer to any other lives but black ones, the 'Karen' meme has been misappropriated by women's issues when it began as an issue of race.

Black people must be sick and tired of the language they use to describe their own specific struggles being coopted and reappropriated to practically any and every other struggle you care to name, aside from their own. And it happens constantly. It must feel so dismissive.

Women hate it when the language that we use to describe ourselves and our struggles is coopted in such a way as to erase us. And with good bloody reason, too. Which should make us even less keen to do the same thing to black people.

I'm gradually beginning to see why so many women of colour are telling us they have little patience with white feminism. Some go as far as to say that they scorn it. That should bother people, rather than immediately jumping to override their voices and tell them feminism is about all women - notwithstanding that it ignores the concerns of some of them - and their objections to this assumption are invalid. This is good for neither women of colour nor feminism in general, and IMO, we should be examining the reasons why. And listening to what they tell us.

No not from the US I'm from UK but I'm talking globally as feminism in one country directly impacted the progression of feminism elsewhere so its all linked.

Scotland here, and same. There were no non white childcare workers at my sons nursery either.

My niece is a nursery worker and I'm so proud of her. I've never thought of her as providing a service to let rich women go to glamorous jobs because... that would be incredibly sexist.