Parents who let your toddlers run feral, how are your kids now?

[Fruitcakesanddogs]

I have a 23 month old. I am very relaxed with him. He’s messy, loud and basically a complete hurricane. I try to just let him do his thing, unless of course he’s going to harm someone else or is really annoying someone.

I know some people don’t like this kind of parenting. If that’s you then fair enough. However I am interested in hearing from parents who did take a more relaxed approach with their toddler. How did it turn out for you?

So far his communication has not been good enough yet for me to explain that I want to leave the shop and need him to put the dinosaur back.

As his communication improves (it has come on leaps and bounds just in the last month) I will be firmer with boundaries. But so far it has felt fairly pointless when he doesn’t understand what I’m saying.

I'm surprised you think he doesn't understand. My two were both on the late side when it came to talking but would have understood this. DD2 is 18 months and doesn't say any words at all, but she understands "can I have that please" "can you put that down" "can you get your shoes" etc.
I'd be surprised if he didn't understand "Home time! Let's put the dinosaur back. Bye bye dinosaur!"
Unless by understand you don't mean literally comprehending the words, but actually understanding and accepting your point of view ie he "doesn't understand" why you want to leave.

As mother of a 1.5 year old with another on the way this thread is so helpful! Exactly what I joined Mumsnet for 🤣 sending to my husband so we can come back to it…

Lesson one, don't confuse gentle parenting with being a permissive parent. 🤭

You know the feral teens that throw stones at buses cause fights with random people riding round on robbed motor bikes etc that's how they turn out. There is no excuse for lazy parenting and if you cba teaching your toddler the correct way to behave them please have no more their is enough feral kids about as it is!!

Place marking as I want to read all these comments later.
I think I'm in the middle, fairly relaxed but I would like to think they know right from wrong and don't overrun me. My friend is having some behaviour issues with her 6 year old, she was very 'spoilt' as in never told no and was always allowed to do what she wanted, my friend is now telling me please be harder on them when they're young because it's very hard to enforce it when they're older if they've never had much rules. I think a lot of it depends on the individual child as well though.

You won't get accurate information from onlookers to others' parenting as they don't know the ins and outs. They may come up with 2+2 = 5 to suit their own views.

There's a big difference between not parenting at all and being a respectful parent (it reads like you're the latter).

There's a huge amount of fear-based parenting where adults feel a generational need to "be in control" for the sake of it. It's hardly surprising to find that when children are treated with respect and have their needs acknowledged, they then become respectful teens and adults who also acknowledge and respect others' needs. Being permissive is the opposite of addressing their needs, and so is fear-based "do as you're told/because I said so" parenting. It's a lot more effort to reflect and consider each situation, rather than to jump to doing what the adult finds most convenient each time and labeling it a boundary for their own good. However, making this effort with young children really pays off.

A lot of parents of ND children (with ASD, ADHD, SPD, dyslexia etc) will parent in a way that appears to be permissive to outsiders who jump to attribute ND behavior to parenting. E.g. the ND child who has intense sensory aversions won't be forced into a buggy or a restaurant by a clued-up parent, but outsiders would say that the parent is 'creating a rod' and other cliche drivel and causing the behavior that is actually a symptom or trait of ND.

If you feel that your 23-month-old still doesn't understand you, you could mention his lack of receptive language skills with the HV. It sounds like you may be parenting in response to his needs, but these are worth keeping an eye on. You might find it useful to set up a familiar routine every time you take him to a shop where he can see and touch toys. A simple routine of telling him that you're only looking and getting him to put the toy down himself and "say bye bye to dinosaur/XYZ" each time is a really good way for a toddler to understand that it's time to go. That way you're respecting him and not snatching, but giving an age-appropriate way for him to transition and understand.

Lots of PP have focussed on the benefits of boundaries and experiencing frustration have for a child (all of which I agree with). I also think these early years are important for learning the skills of parenting- especially being able to tolerate (and therefore help manage) the distress of a child. The example that springs to mind is friends that parented similar to how you describe really struggling when their child was unwell. Child needed medicine - but they just didn’t have the experience or confidence to be in charge, and manhandling the child in the child best interest. So I ended up (with their permission) wrapping the child in a blanket and giving the medicine to a writhing and very upset child. As soon as the medicine kicked in - child was much happier. I really like the circle of security as a framework : always be: bigger, stronger, wiser and kind. When ever possible: follow your child’s led: when ever necessary: take charge. It sounds like you have the middle one nailed down, it’s maybe for you to think about whether you can manage the first and last at the moment. It is much easier to learn this when they are little.

Dfriend had 2 DD who were both very bright academically but feral and never told no by their parents - maybe due to guilt because they both had busy ft jobs and didnt want to be the bad guys by instilling boundaries? Both DC later struggled with any sort of boundary at school, got in with the wrong crowd, and although both eventually got into good unis sadly dropped out with drug and mental health issues. Such a shame as the DC were funny lively kids but their parents never instilled them with self discipline or resilience.

This kind of parenting leads to kids at school who just don’t understand it when they are told ‘no’ or have to have rules in place. It’s all very well saying that kids deserve autonomy blah blah, but society doesn’t work like that. At some point, we all have to conform in order for it all to work! Imagine the chaos if I got up today and decided that today I would drive on the opposite side of the road because I felt like it!

we have kids in school (KS1) who haven’t had boundaries set by parents and they are a pain - they don’t know how to sit still and learn, even for 5 minutes. They don’t understand turn taking or sharing, or not interrupting, or not hitting their friends when they don’t do what they want.

boundries are important for everyone. There’s ways to set and enforce those boundaries if you don’t want to be a ‘shouty’ parent, but they need to be there.

The thing is op this is impossible to measure. You've already described that you do have some boundaries so if he is really annoying someone or if he is in danger so your son will grow up with some expectation of following your instructions. I assume you mean you aren't on his case all the time with instructions like 'put those toys away' 'don't make a mess' etc. You will probably find those kinds of boundaries come naturally in time. When he goes to school etc he will learn to follow all manner of instructions. I doubt that for example not insisting a toddler tidies up after himself will ruin him for life. I recall getting my ds involved in clearing up, cleaning, cooking, looking after the baby etc.

He has always been lovely but has recently morphed into every other teenage boy. Slightly smelly, Lynx showers, will happily fester in the same black hoodie for days on end, lives in a pigsty, grunts when he needs feeding, listens to obnoxious rap music, plays on an xbox etc. Don't worry, I am sure your toddler will get there someday too regardless of your interventions.

I think you would be surprised about what he can understand - communication can happen without words. It reads as though you're allowing him to believe that it's ok to walk into a shop, play with toys that don't belong to him, walk round then shop with them and dictate when you get to leave the shop. He is learning about how the world works and what is socially acceptable all the time, OP and primarily from you. You are the key player in his world and you're teaching him that setting the boundaries is up to him - this is damaging to him, even if you don't see it now.

Fast forward 6 months to a year to when your DS is 2-3. He is programmed to believe that he can do what he wants, when he wants, including handling things that don't belong to him, refusing to get in his pushchair, staying where he wants as long as he wants, creating mess and havoc that someone else has to deal with etc etc. You're setting both him and yourself up for a tough time, in my opinion. As a parent, you have to be prepared to be the receptacle for their big emotions, whilst calmly holding the boundaries strong. It really doesn't sound like you're teaching him these things - occasionally experiencing a snatching child at playgroup is not enough and he will also find this much harder than he needs to because he is so used to just having exactly what he wants all the time.

Whilst I respect gentle parenting and am maybe a little envious I wasn't more of a gentle parent I just cannot get onboard with driving a child somewhere because they don't like being in their pram.

Where are the parameters here as all I see is child getting their own way, which is not the ethos of gentle parenting.

What happens when you go to the shop and he doesn’t willingly put down the toy he has taken a shine to?

OP. If you read yesterdays thread about what made you an emotionally healthy person - well over half the responses talked about boundaries and strict mums not being their friends. I was quite amazed.

you’re being completely naive thinking that your son has never snatched because you don’t snatch things off him - don’t walk into the trap of appeasing your child rather than making a scene. it’s just doormat stuff much if the time and a total cop out. My husband used to do this and it enraged me but over time he has learned to enforce boundaries and expectations. You let your children down if you don’t raise them properly and that includes the tedious business of saying NO etc which we’re all sick of.

We are not big disciplinarians either and have been blessed with gentle children but they both know to Obey the master (moi!) and don’t backchat because we have never let that fly at all. All up for a debate but we never end up negotiating or appeasing. My children are raised to treat people with kindness, work hard at school, look after their stuff at home and participate in family life. I don’t shy away from telling them off but at the same time am not a shouter or aggressive, just can be stern.

The trick is to introduce boundaries at around this point so your son's behaviour doesn't impact on others. Being messy and loud at home is fine if you are ok with it but you need to teach him to be tidy and quiet when in public (inside) places and school. You have a couple of years before you will have real problems if you haven't established them

One person's feral is another's 'relaxed'. Depends what you mean by feral.

Do they scribble on furniture, cut up their clothes, attack other kids, smear their shit on walls? Eat whatever they want whenever they want then not eat meals ever, sweat and spit?

I've known various permissive parents over the years (even back in the 70s when most parents were still smacking their kids). Pretty much all the kids turned out fine by the age of 25 or so. Whether you want to spend 25 years dealing with a permissively parented child is another matter but even children who are actively unpleasant to be around aged 6 or 20 or 15 tend to come round in the end.

I had a friend whose son was treated like this as a toddler and it drove me mad at the time. He’s now in his twenties and a nice boy but lacks skills to function as an adult. He’s actually very quiet but doesn’t leave home or work.

It’s interesting to think about but the point about needing boundaries to feel safe is spot on I suppose!

Many parents do just this when little one decides they don't want to go in the car seat! You can't just go 'oh well let's not bother with it'. Children need to learn they can't have there own way all the time, that they need to think about others, like others have said they look for boundaries you need to give them. Why are you standing in a shop for ages waiting for your not quite two year old to put something back? Crazy! Don't let your child get away with behavior you dislike or you will end up disliking your child. I've seen this happen, it's very sad. I also echo what others have said the children I know with no boundaries or discipline are very rude, think they are the center of the universe and I actively avoid being around them as they are very dislikable!

I'd be concerned if your son doesn't understand you yet. Mine is speech delayed at nearly 3 but has understood my instructions and general conversation since he was much younger than 2.

With the dinosaur example, I think your general ethos that it's his day too is very kind and you sound like a lovely mum.

However, kids are more robust than you are maybe giving him credit for. It's healthy to be the one in charge, setting the agenda and boundaries. Distraction is the key at this age! You could say, time to say bye bye dinosaur, he needs to go to sleep now - ooh look can you run to the door with me? Is that a squirrel outside? (For example, you get the picture!) There doesn't need to be snatching if he won't let go, just a consistent, firm message each time.

Do you think children should obey their parents? I mean the mainstream- hold my hand to cross the road, go and brush your teeth etc. Not excessive authoritarian parenting. Is your view that because rarely told what to do, your child will obey? If you think obedience is not important, that's possibly the crux of the disagreement with most posters.

IMO it's okay to tell a child what to do. Again, don't go to the extreme example please, see there is a very normal middle ground. Not teaching children to obey their parents causes problems. It all starts small, learning to follow the simple things- " put the toy back please". If he won't- model it, show him, praise him. The alternative to allowing them to hold it is not snatching. It's not kind, permissive parents vs snatching, shouting parents.

Obedience is an unpopular parenting word- we try to teach out kids it. I have four beautifully happy, thriving children and teach Early Years. Thriving does not start with being feral, but being obedient.

You are actually disarming him. You are not giving him the tools needed to grow, to know what is right and wrong. You pander to his every whim. I find it bizarre that he dictates when you leave a shop or how you travel and he is not even 2 yet. Step up and parent. He deserves that. You are his teacher, YOU are in one in charge yet you let him take the reins. Sounds like you let him away with murder to avoid a meltdown. That is lazy parenting. Children need boundaries to grow and thrive and deal with the world. All you are teaching him is that HE is the only person in the world and what he says goes. You are just making a rod for your own back and you will face huge battles in the years to come all because you are taking the easy way out and not putting in the work now. It’s very sad really.

I know one ‘gentle parenting’ parent. The child is 11 and perfectly fine. However she can’t cope so much. He goes to private school and she seems not to understand he has to fit in with all their rules and demands. Everything is not his choice now.

Your description pretty much fits one of our friends. Our DC are both 13 now. He is a very sweet, good natured boy, however school has always been a challenge for him. He just doesn't have the self discipline so struggles with the expectations. His attendance is poor and his academic performance suffers as a result.

I took a relaxed approach with my daughter; I do regret it a bit. She’s 4 so not that old but she’s become very demanding and expects everything to be on her terms. She thinks we’re serious ‘yes’ parents and the second we say no to her now she goes into a complete and utter meltdown.

I’ve set more boundaries now; she’s getting better and especially in the last couple weeks I’ve seen a big difference but the foot stomping when something does go her way is honestly driving me insane.. I think it’s probably pretty normal for a 4 year old anyway.. but I wish I’d been more proactive with the tantrums when she was younger. I feel like we have a long road ahead with it.

I leave it for up to five minutes and hope he puts the toy down.

Sorry, but if I was a shopkeeper, I'd be livid. If every child picked up a toy and walked round with it for 5 minutes, imagine how the toys would look. Particularly soft toys with sticky fingers, sneezing etc.

Yes, kids pick up toys in a toy shop. A responsible parent tells them to put them back unless they're buying them, not play with them until they eventually get bored. It's basic respect for someone else's property.

In answer to your question, the kids I know who were brought up with a 'relaxed' parenting style ended up as total nightmares come secondary school. They were also unpopular with their peers and teachers as everyone became tired of their poor (and in one case, violent) behaviour.