Labour, private schools VAT and universities

[BloodyHellKen]

Following on from the thread about Labour, private schools and VAT please could someone explain to me why we shouldn't be concerned that a Labour govt wouldn't remove tax exemption from universities also as they are also VAT exempt in the same way private schools are.

I'm not personally worried about VAT being added onto private school fees and I recognise arguments for and against but the possibility of VAT being added onto a university education does really concern me.

Anyone?

@cardibach in the same way other schools do - though not all and I said on a PP public good be monitored better. 25% of pupils with bursary support, free use of facilities for local state schools, including long standing partnerships, paid for by the parents of pupils not on bursaries.

If they can run no surplus in future years these bursaries are unaffordable, it's large it may well continue but the unintended consequences is that the school is still there, but the only people who can go are the seriously wealthy. Massively reduced bursary support, losers all round with more pressure on the local state schools.

Independent schools aren’t charities in the way the word would be defined for any other organisation @wigywhoo
They exist to give privileges to people who already have a level of privilege (disposable income in the sum of school fees, even subsidised ones). I don’t think that’s right.

To ensure standards are equitable?

If standards within the state sector were equitable, you might have a point. However, they are far from equitable. We have anything from a failing comp where there are severe behavioural problems and where children are unable to fulfil their potential, to excellent grammars stretching the children in a calm and helpful environment. I have heard nothing from the Labour Party about how they will sort out the inequalities within the 94% of the population. Instead, they are focussing on the 6%.

Which I recognised in my post. As I said then, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t address glaring inequality where we can. Then address the more difficult bits.

Bollocks are universities a necessity. They are a luxury.
Don't be complacent enough to think that once VAT is allied to private schools that governments won't start applying it to other educational settings. It is the top of the slippery slope.

They are in terms of charity law! I know you're a bit averse to critical thinking, but still!

They have to follow exactly the same charity laws as every other registered charity - they don't have their own laws/definitions.

Lots (probably most) charities aren't for the benefit of everyone - most are very niche and only benefit a tiny proportion of the population.

If you want to re-write charity law to stop schools being charities, then fair enough, but just be aware that the unintended consequences could force huge numbers of other charities to close!

If universities are a “luxury”, in which alternative “non luxury” environments are you going to train doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers, lawyers, chemists, computer scientists … ?

@SabrinaThwaite degree level Apprenticeships as 1 example and they are available in most of the careers you've just mentioned.
The cost of university is putting many low income families off and it is becoming a luxury for many students.

Apprenticeship trained doctors?

OK. That will be … interesting.

Ditto engineers - are you a chartered engineer by any chance? Because unless you have a higher level degree you’re going to struggle to get chartered.

As for teachers, I thought the private sector advocates on MN were very proud to have PhD and Masters qualified teachers? Not going to get those through apprenticeships, are you?

And, as we are told by MSE, university loans are essentially a graduate tax that many will never have to pay back.

The cost of university is putting many low income families off

It isn't though! The number (and proportion) of low income students didn't decrease when fees went up in 2012, and bar Covid fluctuations has increased every year since. And don't forget the real value of UG fees has decreased - £14k is the real value of the £9k charged in 2012.

Applicants are not put off - its not really their money!

Apprenticeships in medicine, law, teaching etc are in theory an alternative (though how a secondary Maths teacher is supposed to get sufficient subject knowledge if they don't do a Maths degree is beyond me), but the reality is very different. Employers just aren't interested, even though they're being charged a levy.

@SabrinaThwaite they are already talking about Apprenticeships for doctors! I work in the Apprenticeship sector and trust me chartered status for engineers etc isn't a barrier to Apprenticeships.
Many parents we speak to are actively encouraging their kids to go down the degree App route rather than university in prefer to avoid graduate debt. If your family has no experience of university then the cost IS off putting, no matter what MSE says.

@titchy actually employers are more likely to spend their levy on degree level Apprenticeships than the lower level ones. The data shows this and it is an increasing trend.

@SabrinaThwaite if you spend 5 mins researching you will see that you can already get a Master's level Apprenticeship in Engineering plus Bachelor's degree level Solicitor Apprenticeship and those are only 2 of the careers you mentioned.

Ah OK, degree apprenticeship route - which establishments facilitate the “degree” element of the degree apprenticeship?

I’d also be interested to find out more about the ICE chartered route that doesn’t involve a university degree. Can you elaborate?

@SabrinaThwaite yes it is a degree but funded by the employer hence free to the student. Also the NHS medical Apprenticeship leads to a full medical degree already. So obviously these are more attractive routes than traditional university for lower income families. As such they offer a state funded alternative to full time university education and I can certainly see how the government could then add VAT to university fees somewhere down the line.
All I'm saying is don't be naive in thinking the VAT rise will only impact private schools in the long term

Stop being so unpleasant about me.
Obviously they fit into the law or they wouldn’t be. My point was they don’t fit naturally - the law has been written to include them when most people wouldn’t think of the work they do as mainly charitable or even to have charity as it’s understood by most people as their reason for existing.
Which societal group wrote the law?

Are these niche groups usually more privileged than most?

A degree at a university. Funding source is irrelevant to whether universities area luxury or a necessity, which was your original point.

Also the NHS medical Apprenticeship leads to a full medical degree already

But it still requires a university to deliver the academic elements required to become a doctor.

So universities aren’t luxuries if they are providing the academic elements required for a degree apprenticeship?

But universities are luxuries if they are providing a straight 3 / 4 / 5 year degree?

OK.

@SabrinaThwaite @cardibach
My point is that once you open the floodgates to VAT on any form of education then you enable any government to pick and choose what it applies VAT to. Currently they say that they would exempt private SEN provision from VAT but that could change in the future. They could then quite easily say that self funded Uni fees will have VAT added on but employer funded courses (Apprenticeships) will be exempt.
All of this is supposition obviously but it is a scenario that could happen once the public accept VAT on education.
I'm just illustrating the point that it is government definition of what is 'luxury' or not.

Also the NHS medical Apprenticeship leads to a full medical degree already.

It is not yet in place - possible pilot scheme starts in 2024?

Ah - slippery slope fallacy.
OK.

@cardibach well I bet 30 years ago that no-one thought that students would have to pay tuition fees yet here we are!

@SabrinaThwaite it shows the direction of travel.