Labour, private schools VAT and universities

[BloodyHellKen]

Following on from the thread about Labour, private schools and VAT please could someone explain to me why we shouldn't be concerned that a Labour govt wouldn't remove tax exemption from universities also as they are also VAT exempt in the same way private schools are.

I'm not personally worried about VAT being added onto private school fees and I recognise arguments for and against but the possibility of VAT being added onto a university education does really concern me.

Anyone?

Some of us did and started savings plans.

They're not. Degree apprenticeships are a tiny tiny tiny part of the apprenticeships market. The tried and tested level 2 and 3 ones are going great guns, Higher apps, slow, degree ans L7 - no. Very very slow. They're not a realistic alternative to uni, and won't be till the whole offering has been completely changed. Drop out is huge!

@cardibach sorry but you're just flailing around making unsubstantiated claims all over the place! If you're the sort of person driving Labour Party policy making, God help us!

And now a non sequitur…

Eh? The unsubstantiated claims aren’t coming from me. The unsubstantiated claims are coming from the ‘what about if Labour put VAT on University fees’ people. I have nothing to do with Labour Party policy, as is pretty obvious, so that’s another unsubstantiated claim.
What sort of person are you suggesting I am?

Read what's there @cardibach - I don't say you are a labour party policy maker, I merely speculate that if they are anything like you, we're in trouble.

I have made no claims - just posed questions and speculated. You on the other have are making throw away claims about "what people understand as charities" - that's what I mean. Oh my word, but then you've proven yourself to be quite the piece of work. Quite an eye opener into the mind of the spiteful left.

Actually @cardibach having re-read, it does sound like I am saying that, re Labour Party policy makers - but I hope my subsequent post has clarified. Apologies.

@wigywhoo that really wasn’t an unsubstantiated claim.
You still haven’t said what terrible sort of person I allegedly am which would need God to protect you from, but don’t bother. I’m not that interested in your opinions any more.

Yes, that’s the issue. What else will come next? Other education, private healthcare, luxury care homes etc? The logic they are using against private schools could easily be applied to other areas.

Currently they say that they would exempt private SEN provision from VAT

I think what they’ve said is that those with an EHCP funded by the LEA would be exempt. That leaves a lot of SEN children without an EHCP facing VAT on fees.

No of course not.

No doctor, surgeon, dentist, teacher, university lecturer, judge etc, was ever privately educated.

@titchy well level 2s aren't going great guns because a lot of thel have scrapped. The L6 & 7 are still in their infancy and most schools direct students towards full time university rather than Apprenticeships as it looks better on their outcome data but if you really scrutinise the data you will see that employers are more supportive of L6&7 than the lower levels, there have been many articles in FE weekly etc to support that.
The fact that many L6&7 are being developed by EPAOs shows you where they believe the direction of travel to be going.
Anecdotally we have had over 200 starts on L6 programmes since August and only approx 130 in L3 programmes.

@cardibach er, it really was. As for you you've been condescending and aggressively dismissive to a number of posters, you care nothing for the human impact of this poorly thought out policy and if policy is being driven by people with your prejudices then yes, God help many of us. I feel sorry for you really.

“Look at percentages of independently educated people at Oxbridge, in Parliament, in top companies etc. it’s disproportionate and it isn’t because those people are better.”

Now factor in those who were similarly rich but chose to go to state (able to have the luxuries that many of those who went private had to forgo such as nicer holidays) perhaps hiring private tutors etc. The number of people at the top who actually come from genuinely poor backgrounds is incredibly small. The domination of those from private schools is significantly driven because they come from the group who has money. Attending private schools is not some magic network which will make your life for you (there is the odd example) but having family networks which do is much more likely too.

There was a time when private schools were a disadvantage, when we had grammars and attending private often denoted you were not good enough to attend a grammar. The abolition of the grammars caused the rise of the private dominance. However, the grammar system also had issues.

We no longer even have politicians who have any vision for what will improve education, we have vague statements, empty platitudes and trying to lay the issues at the door of the private system. You may find your dislike of private schools cathartic but it will not help kids in state schools, but it is clear that is not what this is about.

“If it didn’t advantage then people wouldn’t pay. It’s wrong that children get further because if their parents’ financial success.”

Well that is nonsense. People pay for things all the time that doesn’t create the benefit they think it does. Even in the ‘90s it was known that the actual best ‘bank for your buck’ was to get in to a good school catchment area (you could move a bit further out later), send your kid to state and to spend the money on private tutoring and extracurricular activities.

Private schools can give extra privilege (the extreme elite ones where the networks are genuinely amazing) or they can offer something for children with particular needs. However, in general it is not the benefit it is perceived to be. The private schools have an interest in giving that impression, those who oppose private schools have an interest in maintaining that impression and those who are sensible enough to use their money more wisely have an interest in keeping the competition down in good state schools by maintaining that impression.

That's a shame about L2s. But DAs aren't that new. Seven, eight years or so. Yes plenty being developed (and some of those developed being scrapped too btw). Plenty of demand. Plenty of training providers. But still very few employers!

And the doctors apprenticeship will only ever be for those with existing clinical experience - nurse practitioners, physician associates etc.

We shouldn't be concerned, because there is absolutely no suggestion from anyone, including Labour, that this is even slightly going to happen or a good idea.

OP, did this come out of your own brain? There's tonnes of real stuff to worry about - don't waste your energy worrying about imaginary stuff, that won't happen. You may as well be worrying about a future government providing tax relief for stomping kittens

If it came from elsewhere, and not your brain. Why do you think they might want you worried about made-up stuff?

No they won't. Anyone can apply providing they have the right academic qualifications. Even graduates with a non-medical first degree can apply.
"Providing an alternative route into medicine will help more people of different backgrounds get into the profession, making the NHS workforce more representative of the local communities it serves"
So no requirement for existing clinical experience at all.

I know what the med apprenticeship says. The reality of apprenticeships is that the employer pays the apprentice a salary. The NHS is on the bones of its arse. To think they'll employ people with no experience to stand in a corner and watch an outpatient clinic for a year or two, when the alternative is to employ someone straight from med school with both knowledge and some experience, is ridiculous.

There are much much much better and cheaper ways of widening participation in med schools.

I'll say it again, just because the app standard exists, doesn't mean it's a viable alternative to uni.

This came from my brain, if you want to think of it like that. I was ruminating on politics, different parties and what they do/what they say they are going to do vs what they actually do and the last 30 odd years of my political experience since I could vote.

I am not a shill, a simpleton, easily led by 'bad' people or a journalist or any of the other things I've been called on this thread. I've not read all of the thread as it appears to have turned into a big slanging match.

VAT on higher education is something I am genuinely concerned about. I also thank the PP who posted the link about a planned government overhaul of higher education so everyone will receive a kind of grant/loan to use over their lifetime. I wasn't aware of that.

The grant idea doesn't fill me with confidence that educational costs are only going 1 way and once it become the norm for us all to pay through the nose for our ongoing education I can see VAT could be added and it will saddle more of us with debt.

Of course I could be wrong, but like I said this is a worry to me which is why I started the thread.

@titchy I could debate Apprenticeships all day as it is my area of expertise however to be honest it is a sidebar anyway as I was only using university as an example of people agreeing with the VAT on private schools now without considering what the long term impact could be.

Agreeing with VAT on private schools now without considering what the long term impact could be

Lots of catastrophising about VAT on Timmy’s swimming lessons, threats to buy up houses in certain school catchments, and quitting jobs in order to stop paying tax given the posts on all these threads.

I suspect very little of these will happen.

@SabrinaThwaite not threats no, some Yr 6 parents from DDs former primary school have their houses on the market to move to better state secondaries as the VAT pushes them out of their comfort zone. Also record number of grammar applications this year I believe.
Incredibly blinkered to believe that the proposal will have zero impact on good state schools.

Good.

Hopefully the next step will be to end the two tier state system.

@SabrinaThwaite how is it good when these kids will take state places at good schools from poorer kids?
You are delusional if you think there will be any attempts to level the two tier system. The VAT isn't about improving state schools, it is about offering an incentive to the left of the party. It isn't part of a coherent policy to improve state schools. They have already said that they will stick to Tory spending plans for the first couple of years.

It’s a start.

And I don’t want to level the two tier state system, I’d like to see it abolished.