When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

Why are you an apologist for a known terrorist group that just brutally raped and murdered countless women and girls?

Your username would suggest you imagine you are a feminist.

Have you no shame? Or decency?

Well said - only someone who shared its very well-known biases could imagine it was unbiased.

Terrorism has a very specific definition, hence its specific application: non-state actors. Some outlets perceive Gaza's Hamas government as a state, and so don't call this terrorism: it's a country that declared war on Israel. Others perceive Hamas as a terror group who have no official recognition as a state, hence they are terrorists. When it comes to state-like organisations such as ISIS and Hamas, this terminology can become challenging.

In the UK, Hamas is not recognised and is a proscribed group, hence any and all support for Hamas and their actions is illegal, including many posts on this thread.

I found that post brutal too.

It's not 'odd'. It's antisemitic.

Let's not mince words.

The BBC has a long and ignoble history of this.

Why, hello straw man.

Fancy seeing you here!

@Asthebellcurves @Truthisbetterthanlies
Thank you.

Yes, a quick google search will show anyone that's confused that a kibbutz is an agricultural village, not a settlement.

I'm so sorry
I've never known anything like this either. The messages and emails being shared among my family and friends...
They are saying at least 250 young people murdered at the dance festival. It's unbearable.

It is.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

@BlurredEdges yes, they're saying 260 were murdered at the party. Some of the victims' names have been released and the news programmes are showing photos and names of the victims. I can't watch it anymore

I do think that these are acts of terrorism. They are designed specifically to target vulnerable individuals including women and children and hold them hostage. If it's not terrorism, then it is surely a war crime. That's not to say that I don't have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, but not the awful tactics of Hamas. And I also have sympathy for a generation of Israelis who were born post 67 and have also been dragged into this mess by the extremely poor choices of their previous generations. When you look at the number of Jews in Israel (approx 7 million) they are sitting ducks and I can understand their fear of Palestinians and their sympathisers in Iran and Jordan. They are surrounded which makes them rightly paranoid and heavy handed in their response. Then there are those countries in the middle east who are anti Israel because of their allegiance with their energy, the USA. The other question is, whether Israel has also committed acts of terrorism in the past or whether they started a war by occupying the west bank. The whole thing is so unbelievably complex and I really just cannot see how it can ever reach a peaceful conclusion. Both sides no longer wish for a two state solution as have grown cynical of it ever working. The palastinians increasingly want to oust the Israelis and reclaim parts of Israel now. I find it very hard to have any sympathy for the palastinians however when they are dancing in the streets, parading their victims and taking enjoyment from the death and destruction of their victims. That's just pure evil and will undoubtedly lose any sympathy towards their cause.

As an aside, although I have sympathy towards the plight of the general palastinian civilian population, and feel as though unwise and incendiary decisions have been made in Israel, I feel that the celebrations by Palastinians on Edgeware road today to be despicqble and in this country feel as though our Jews deserve absolute protection. I regard the Jews in this country and Europe to be our Jews and feel enormously protective of them. Maybe that's also as a result of the impact upon them in Europe, particularly by Germany, our then enermy, during the Holocaust and am influenced partly by the anti islamic sentiment in this country. In essence I think that I partly blame Israeli foreign policy, whilst sympathising with all the victims of the Holocaust.

I am happy to concede that some of my views are contradictory, but I think that that shows just how complex and messy the whole situation is. Our reaction in the UK should be neutral with regards to Israel but focus on our own citizens who all deserve the right to feel safe and accepted.

But yes, the lines between terrorism and war are pretty blurry.
My sympathies lie with all those mothers and children affected.

Despicable and not desirable. Damn autocorrect!!

Both Palestinians and Israelis have behaved appallingly towards the other for years. Many on both sides have died. And I feel very sorry for the Palestinians, whose land and homes were taken. That absolutely does not make me a supporter of a proscribed organisation, @Asthebellcurves, so think what you want, and go threaten someone else.

Land and homes they stole from Jewish people originally, hence the ridiculousness of that argument. You can go all the way back through ancient history and will lose, it's silly. The reality is the Palestinians rejected a peace deal and started a series of bloody wars, all of which they lose, and terror attacks. Sympathising with terrorists isn't my cup of tea, personally.

There is no threat. It's simply pointing out that supporting terror groups even through basic statements is a criminal offence. Just look up Sadiq Khan's statement earlier this evening.

@Asthebellcurves Amnesty international has made a statement about the plight of Palestinians and so have many many respected organisations. My own Tory mother in law feels sorry for them, for gods sake. Anyway, I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave it there.

Two at least are known to me (friends of friends) it's unbearable. This isn't war, this is just pure brutality and hate.

I don't know if direct links are allowed but friends in Israel have said that if anyone wants to donate to support emergency relief, they recommend Magen David Adom and United hatzalah. I've donated to both, it doesn't feel like much but I feel the need to do something to help.

@Oioicaptain as a 3rd generation British Jew and Londoner, I just want to say thank you.

It is an incredibly messy and complex and horrific situation but it means a lot to me to know that there are non-jewish British people who share our pain.

Seeing the rape and murder and torture of Jewish women and children celebrated in my own city has broken me today. Your post means a lot xx

Amnesty have been massively antisemitic for years, sadly, even though it was originally founded by a jew (he was the father of a family friend).

They hate Israel with a passion. Amnesty condemning Israel for the crime of having hundreds of its women and children and elderly people raped, killed and tortured means FUCK ALL.

I'm sorry that your mother in law is a tory who hates Jews.

It's also a word to describe actual terrorists

As in this actual case

Two at least are known to me (friends of friends) it's unbearable.

I am so very sorry. I have read tonight about a number of the people killed in southern Israel, including a family with three young children and it is unbelievably upsetting.

Thank you @StarbucksSmarterSister

Yes, It is upsetting beyond words x

Some polling from 2009:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/09/10/rejection-of-extremism/

"Bin Laden also has the support of most Muslims in the Palestinian territories (52%), but a much more solid majority of Palestinian Muslims had confidence in him in 2003 (72%)."

Possibly the Israelis want to firstly acknowledge the scale of a heinous terrorist atrocity with appropriate gravitas and invite the world to share its mourning. I think it must be frustrating for Israelis to find a massive terrorist assault being conflated with wider political issues so soon.

My impression from speaking with friends and family in Israel today is that they are in total shock.

These attacks are unprecedented in scale, brutality, targeted at the most vulnerable people, revelling in cruelty, and they're being widely celebrated in certain sectors of the media.

I personally don't think I will ever move past seeing the things I've seen today. The nazi atrocities were of course unbelievably horrific, but they were decades before I was born

Seeing this in more or less real time is... bad. Very bad.