Can we talk about the aging population?

[Kendodd]

Anyone know much?
I don't see much serious discussion in politics about this and the challenges it will create. Policy just seems to be more of the same ignoring the fact society will fundamentally change and lots of the numbers just won't add up anymore (elder care, healthcare etc) Having said that I think we are quite well placed in the UK to cope being open to immigration from higher birthrate countries. Plus we will have a heads up watching how low birthrate and low immigration countries in Asia cope and what they do right or wrong.

Overall, I think, lower numbers of people are good for the planet, if predictions are even correct, people across the world might decide to just start birthing their own care workers though and upend the current trajectory. Anyway I don't think we should continue to ignore it's challenges.

They also have income tax at 52% which I don't think would be acceptable in this country.

there's a complete different attitude to tax & most feel they benefit from paying that much tax. I think a higher percentage have private pensions too.

This is being talked about quite a lot, especially in non-MSM spaces. It is a concerning problem, but I think we need to remember that AI is going to radically change the social landscape. Robotics won't be the answer for care issues for some time, but AI is going to lead to unemployment for massive swathes of people, starting at the top. Many jobs requiring high levels of education like being a doctor, academic or accountant will go first, then more middle tier admin positions will disappear. Ironically the lowest paid jobs - carer, bin man, hairdresser, etc, with a high manual element - will be far more immune to AI. There will likely be a glut of people available for care work, not a shortage.

Tbh it makes me feel a bit queasy too but needs must!

Hopefully countries like UK stop keeping elderly, demented, and people with no quality of life alive for the sale of longevity. I absolutely will not allow myself to become a burden like that.

DFil is really struggling now with quality of life at 87. He’s riddled with cancer, has had various falls, is drugged up to the eyeballs and is a massive stress factor for MIL who is 80 and trying to look after him. It’s just no way to live at this point.

I was thinking Logans Run. Finish us all off before we are a burden. Maybe not at 30 though.
Before we encourage more people to have more babies, we have a lot of other things to fix. Housing and healthcare and affordable childcare come to mind.

I think that whatever is happening in Asia isn’t a good starting point.
Yes they are facing the issue much earlier in than us so have to implement things now rather than is 20 years time.
But their culture is so radically different that a lot of what they do will probably be rejected here.

Eg the importance of community in Japan vs individualist approach in the U.K. leading to a high involvement of family in Asia whereas et we expect ‘people to fund their own care in old age!’ answer here (and comments on how those who rent will once again not pay ‘their share’)

I much prefer the German approach of ensuring people pay into a pot of old age care, just like you pay into your pension. But you need some forward thinking view and be ready to implement things 20~30 years ahead of time. Our politicians in the U.K. won’t do that.

Plus it doesn’t stop the issue of not vain enough workers to do the caring and looking after, at least, the bare bones of the economy/country. We can ofc rely on immigrants. Maybe.

There were 600,000 people came into the UK I think it was 2021. Most of them are students. I can only think that this is how we are funding our universities at the moment.

But there are millions of young people in African countries with no future who will want to move to a more viable country.
And this is happening now. France has removed the Shenghen Agreement from it's Italian border so that it can just send all the immigrants coming in back to Italy (the ones that came off boats). I don't think there's much point discussing whether we need a few thousand fruit pickers when the immigrants who want to come here are numbered in their millions.
It's something that we really should be having international discussions about. A few million unemployed (mostly) illegal immigrants who need housed and fed is what the real issue is. I just don't see how this is going to pan out. No Eu country wants that number and the more you take the greater encouragement it is for others to come. Their own countries can't provide for them and are probably glad when they leave.

More ND people need to be supported into paid employment. We're perfectly capable of working, but can often only manage part time or reduced working hours, yet there's very little out there to help us. Something is better than nothing and would reduce the benefits bill in any case. Only 20% of autistic people are in work and that majority of ND people are capable of work and do not have high care needs. They just need adjustments and some support and adequate rest and recovery periods.

That's easy to say though when you're not in that situation.

My DPs are 85 and 90 respectively, still living at home with no assistance ( although I think I've finally persuaded DM to get a cleaner).

At the minute they are managing but it's becoming increasingly fragile and it's obvious to me that either one of them going into hospital for an illness for example, would upset that delicate equilibrium as it has for my friends parents. They are physically not bad as they go for a little walk every day.

Nobody wants to be a burden, until you are and the line between wanting to live and not wanting to live is a very fragile one.

DGF was rescued from a serious car accident in his late 80s and DF often said it would have been better if he had passed away. At the time I thought that was unnecessarily harsh, but as I get older I reflect that he was right, particularly as DGF said to everyone and anyone that he wished he had died in the accident.

Neither of them want to be a burden, but with decreasing mental ability- both have mild dementia I think- it's likely there will be significant care responsibilities or organisation thereof required in the future.

It's just not that simple.

The number of hospital beds for general and acute care has fallen by 44 per cent since 1987/88; the bulk of this fall is due to closures of beds for the long-term care of older people.

Hindsight is a marvellous thing, who could have possibly forseen the increase in an older population ?

Finish us all off before we are a burden.

Not quite what Japan does but it has an age limit (80yo) for some care - aka it won’t go into prolonging life treatments if you are over 80yo
MAIDS in Canada is much close to it. If you don’t provide adequate care and some can’t buy said care privately, they’ll end up living such an awful life that they’ll go for MAID instead. Many examples of chronically ill people ‘choosing’ MAID/‘suicide’ because they don’t get the care they need (I mean such as painkillers). It’s easy to see how that could be extended.

(btw it’s nit just Canada, other countries such as Belgium or the Netherlands have laws similar to that, where people who are not on an end of life pathway can chose ‘assisted suicide’)

Who is deciding if the quality of life of someone isn’t worth it?

Can you see how quickly this can become an extremely ableist measure?

The falling birth rate is ultimately a positive thing for humanity and for the planet, yes there will be a difficult period of adjustment as we stop relying on the insane model of endless growth (which was always unsustainable) and move to a more sustainable economic model.

Also I wouldn't worry about population collapse too much, climate change is a more serious threat and is more likely to hobble civilization before a lack of babies does.

Assisted dying is what is needed. Prolonging life when someone is clearly suffering is barbaric quite frankly. What's the point of pumping someone full of antibiotics who is bed bound, and requires 24 care and has dementia - my nan was like this for years. She never stepped outside her house, she couldn't. She suffered right to the end and it was an infection that caused it, and she was in pain no matter how many pain relief drugs they gave her.

We should be allowed to say if I get X illness and its progressed to x stage I would like to be let go. We should all have that choice!

Hopefully countries like UK stop keeping elderly, demented, and people with no quality of life alive for the sale of longevity. I absolutely will not allow myself to become a burden like that.

My DMIL (now deceased) said exactly the same. Made me promise to accompany her to Dignitas and worked tirelessly for the campaign for assisted dying. But it didn't prevent her developing dementia at 86, and although she managed to stay in her own house for several more years before needing care (self-funded) she was very miserable about her situation towards the end.

With regard funding care, I think it should be free at point of need (but not care home 'rent' or food) and should be funded by a death tax. The death tax could be 3% of estate paid by everyone who dies over retirement age whether they needed care or not. We can't just keep expecting younger people to pay this along with everything else. I know the death tax idea was floated ages ago by the Lib Dems but was shouted down with howls of 'it's not fair' personally, I can't see what's not fair about it. Also, it doesn't solve the problem of who is going to provide all this care.

The young today are obviously the old tomorrow, but we should also consider the health of those much younger than the 'ageing' population being talked about and that we have people in their 20s, 30s, 40s .... with health conditions, mental illness and even deprivation not before seen in these age groups (certainly not in recent times), combined with the issues of poverty, global migration. It is a much wider issue throughout our resident population. We need to focus on ageing better, prevention of issues and faster interventions, alongside multi-generational living perhaps and sharing in the needs of pulling together for our communities, rather than the islands we appears to be living in, with wealth, class, geography, access to quality education, healthcare just some of the islands that now seem to be at an increasing distance for many. I work in employment support and an increasing group of young people (across the board) do not want jobs that 'stress' them or fail to make them 'happy' and, certainly are not, (on the whole, with the odd exception), interested in any form of care role, with the added issue that many do not have the educational attainment to fit the needs of the role either. This is a societal issue of epic proportions and not one fixed by focusing on one part of the population's needs. Ageing is not the issue, ageing badly is, alongside our lack of cohesive policies and we need a population that shares the same ultimate goals. Sorry, soapbox pushed away now, but honestly, I deal with issues every day that should be easy to solve, but no one seems to care, or want to put their hand in their pocket, whether on an individual, local or national basis.

We do have that choice and it can be specified in an Advance Directive which refuses active treatment in the event of certain illnesses/conditions. I'm 53 and have one set up. Any adult can.

You do have that choice. Make a living will. All our elderly rellies have one. DM and her husband died of COVID in a care home. They had advance directives for no treatment, they had both declined the vaccine too, among several other incidences, including CPR for heart failure, and any "life extending" treatment. It contained detail about treatment for pain relief, and making comfortable at end of life, and I know they both had morphine in their final hours. Dm's husband was very, very poorly, at 88, with several issues, DM however was in good health, at 92, but just tired of life.

Addendum: You have to get your next of kin to sign it too, so no over-riding wishes, when it comes to crunch.

fortunatly they invented covid

Most of my DS's friends are Polish, as we have a large Polish population where we live. None of them are planning on staying in the UK.They all think life is easier in Poland and are planning on applying to University in Poland. My children font see much future in living in the UK. Life has been made so difficult in this country for young people that it is not only low birthrate we have to worry about but that other countries, who also have a demographic time bomb will be crying out for our educated young people. They will take their education, energy and tax money with them.

Covid as a master plan by the elite to rid the world of its economically inactive old and sick population members would be a brilliant theory if only the governments hadn't thrown unprecedented amounts of resources into protecting and then vaccinating their populations. Sometimes I'm not sure the Illuminati even know what they're playing at.

Are they? The majority of all immigrants? Young men is what she said, not just men, too. Do you have the figures?
And again, the poster has confirmed by another reply that I was correct