Can we talk about the aging population?

[Kendodd]

Anyone know much?
I don't see much serious discussion in politics about this and the challenges it will create. Policy just seems to be more of the same ignoring the fact society will fundamentally change and lots of the numbers just won't add up anymore (elder care, healthcare etc) Having said that I think we are quite well placed in the UK to cope being open to immigration from higher birthrate countries. Plus we will have a heads up watching how low birthrate and low immigration countries in Asia cope and what they do right or wrong.

Overall, I think, lower numbers of people are good for the planet, if predictions are even correct, people across the world might decide to just start birthing their own care workers though and upend the current trajectory. Anyway I don't think we should continue to ignore it's challenges.

Birthing their own care workers 🙄

I don’t even know how to respond to this.

@MenopauseSucks I agree, otherwise where does the cash come from?

They should move to the method that person's home should be taken into account when at-home care is supplied

I don't disagree with this, but I am not sure it would be possible to do this without it applying to all people who need at home care (otherwise it would be age discrimination?).

That would make life very hard for younger people who receive at home care. For example, if they needed to upsize because they had another child, that would be difficult if they had a massive charge on their home.

Also, I don't think it would be a vote winner amongst younger people who have half an eye on their inheritance! That is why May dropped the policy like a hot potato.

Take your point @RoyKentFanclub , but when we use generational cluster rhetoric such as baby boomer and gen x that’s what we invite.

For the record I am very much in favour of discussing voluntary euthanasia, and also with discussing, at an individual level at what point in our own lives it’s time to stop medical intervention ( advanced directive) for example.

Having watched the NHS continue to treat my dementia suffering MIL for long term recurring heart problems because she was incapable of saying no, whilst at the same time watching waiting lists for similar treatment grow ever longer, we do have to tackle these issues.

I think so too.

I think the longevity of the population will scale down eventually, especially when Gen X and Millenials progress, the result of pollutants and dietary changes - eating so much more fast food and sugar.

Of course.

I have friends who paid for a live-in carer for their mother for a couple of years before she died.

Obviously most people cannot afford that, but some people can and do already.

They are also often the ones proving the care for older family members.

To think so many of us would have had more children if things like childcare, mat pay, health care were better.
I think we would have had another if it had been more affordable. Childcare especially but also the thought of putting another through uni in 18 years time.

I'm not sure euthanasia per se is the answer, but I do think we need to stop so enthusiastically treating the very elderly with pneumonia or other illnesses. My friends DF had severe pneumonia a couple of years ago - she got the call to get there - but thanks to the doctors efforts he recuperated and had to move into a care home where he has a low quality of life.

I do fear this imperative to save life at all costs is not always the best answer, but it would take a massive shift in thinking to change it. I know my 90 year old DF for example refused to sign a do not treat form during covid, but now he is getting dementia it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for him to pass after a swift illness.

Actually the changes to the voting system are more likely to disenfranchise the elderly according to the experience of the recent local elections. Younger people are more likely to have ID, to carry it everywhere and to be able to negotiate the council's online booking system for free ID if they don't have it.
Obviously there are lots of exceptions in both directions, but on average the older people who struggle with the new rules were previously regular voters, whereas the younger people who fall foul of these regulations probably weren't going to vote anyway, so the impact falls heavier among the older voters.

Shockingly but amusingly Jacob Rees-Mogg straight up admitted that this had been an attempt by the Tories to gerrymander the system which had totally backfired on them.

I was hoping this thread would have interesting ideas about societal changes that could happen rather than mention of euthanasia.

In Singapore which faces similar challenges they have plans such as repurposing current child care facilities to elder care facilities as there won't be the children to need them and they have a similar increasing older population.

https://www.populationpyramid.net/united-kingdom/2023/

This doesn't look as bad as people are predicting ? Especially given there has been a plateau in life expectancy ?

I have to be convinced that the immigrants currently coming would help. I wonder if some of them could even turn into smugglers themselves. Or indeed are already. Some are slaved and exploited from arrival and never add to taxes.

Low wage country means this would be disastrous in the future. Immigration needs to be controlled and based on diversity of skills to balance all this out. The locals need to be incentivised to have children. The welfare system needs reform. Health and Education should be a priority. The elderly need to be treated with respect and dignity they built this country and work hard for it.

Just for balance, and apologies I can't quickly find the numbers, but as a society we are also supporting more younger people with complex health and SEN needs than any previous generation too. And forecast to rise as more poorly babies are saved in infancy. So the costs are increasing at both ends of the population demographic, and those children will also potentially need a lifetime of care and support. Look at Downs. When I was a child, life expectancy for Downs was 20's, maybe 30's. Now they can live a full life expectancy of 70 odd years. It's not a bad thing, don't get me wrong, but it is something that also needs to be acknowledged as a compassionate society that values life at all ends of the spectrum.

I have to be convinced that the immigrants currently coming would help. I wonder if some of them could even turn into smugglers themselves. Or indeed are already.

possibly but the government needs to do something about the backlog in asylum cases, process far more swiftly and allow asylum seekers to work and be kept track of, rather than have them disappear into the criminal underworld. We need workers, and if these people are willing to work, even seasonally, then why not? They are clearly not taking work from home grown people, because we have a massive unfilled vacancy crisis almost everywhere. Incentives to make people have more children dont work, unless they are making childcare more affordable, and even then, if people dont want children, they wont have them. In any case, those children won't be working for another 18-21 years.

Exactly.

@Caffeinequeen91 , yes, from all I’ve ever read or heard, it’s often the relatives who insist on ‘striving to keep alive’.

Medics may well think it kinder to let Nature take its course (I have had the GP agree with me on this, re an elderly aunt with dementia) but how can they even begin to discuss it relatives, when they fear angry, distraught reactions, not to mention Daily Mail headlines screaming ‘Callous Docs wanted Mum to Die!’

With respect that’s a very inward looking approach in this type of conversation which is about population trends. Nobody is saying it’s personally anyone’s fault, it simply is what it is

That's why the debate becomes impossible, stating certain facts gets interpreted as an attack.

@KnittedCardi there's no way costs can be in anyway equal surely?

You think that a young Indian/Philippino/Nigerian woman or man who's brought in to the UK on a nursing or social care visa by a care agency is likely to wake up one morning and say "screw this job, I'm going set up shop as a people smuggler"?

These are the people who we're talking about when we refer to immigration filling in the recruitment holes. It's not ideal in some ways, but it's a fact of life in many many countries, and unlike "have more babies" you don't have to wait for 18 odd years for it to be of any use.

Also when discussing immigration the landscape will be very different, lots of western countries will be fighting for them too plus other countries will become more prosperous eg India & it's likely less will want to leave.

China may even have a change of heart & embrace immigration, who knows.

But Sweden has a lower birth rate than the Uk and they have super affordable childcare etc.

They also have income tax at 52% which I don't think would be acceptable in this country.

Look at Poland & their economic growth, with more returning from the UK for example