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Ukraine Invasion: Part 45

981 replies

MagicFox · 26/09/2023 20:14

Thanks to all: contributors, lurkers and those in-between

**
Agreed thread guidance:

A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events

B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content

C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful

OP posts:
Thread gallery
398
L1ttledrummergirl · 16/10/2023 13:28

I echo the the thanks. I'm so thankful that the roundup I'd done by @DancesWithDucks and now you guys. I'm not sure my mental health could read some of the stuff you wade through.

MagicFox · 16/10/2023 13:55

Absolutely, thanks from me too

OP posts:
MissConductUS · 16/10/2023 14:12

BezMills · 16/10/2023 13:02

Re shooting of wounded combatants, I've seen footage of storming operations where downed enemies are 'shot for control', which looks to you and me like execution.

After all the shooting is finished, wounded are (should be) taken care of according to Geneva Convention. When there are bullets being fired, it's shoot to kill and shoot to be sure they're killed.

War is completely messed up, isn't it?

This gets complicated under the LOAC (laws of armed combat). You're required to discriminate between enemy combatants who are Hors de Combat (out of the battle) due to surrender, capture, complete incapacitation, parachuting from a disabled aircraft, etc., and those who, though wounded, could still present a danger to you. If the latter, you can and should kill them or render them Hors de Combat.

More here from the Lieber Institute at West Point, which studies the laws of armed combat.

Down Is Not Always Out: Hors De Combat in the Close Fight

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2023 14:15

Aha, we'll t8me to earn my share of the thanks!

United 24 Media

⚫️ Hamas attack ends Netanyahu-Putin relationship, — WSJ

Journalists remind us that Netanyahu was with Putin even at a time when he was increasingly isolated. Even Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the warming of its relations with Israel's sworn rival — Iran — could not undermine this cooperation.

Now, after the deadly attack on Israel by Iran-backed Hamas militants, those talks appear to have stopped.

Putin is one of the few world leaders who did not call Netanyahu to express his condolences over the deaths of more than 1,300 Israelis killed by Hamas in this attack.

⚫️ "This week, the hero city of Hostomel, which did not surrender to the occupier, is celebrating its day... The more everyone does now, the better we will protect all of Ukraine and give every community the opportunity to live peacefully, to celebrate their days safely and freely," — Zelenskyy

Watch our video about Hostomel

⚫️ ❗️A missile hit the UN headquarters in Lebanon, media reports

It is noted that there were no casualties.

⚫️ Almost 260 Ukrainians remain blocked in the Gaza Strip, Zelenskyy said.

⚫️ Successful attack by drones of the Security Service of Ukraine on the Krasnaya Yaruga substation.

Enemy military facilities were connected to it.

Power outages in response to multiple attacks on their energy infrastructure are a reality that is already on their doorstep.

⚫️ The Pope called on Hamas to release all the hostages kidnapped from Israel to the Gaza Strip.

"I insist that neither children, nor the sick, nor the elderly, nor women, nor civilians become victims of the conflict," the pontiff said in a Sunday sermon in St. Peter's Square in Rome.

Speaking about Israel's expected ground operation, he added that it is important to create humanitarian corridors to save the entire population.

According to UN estimates, about a million residents have left Gaza at the moment. Meanwhile, Israel evacuated the border town of Sderot before the start of the operation.

"We must not forget about the suffering of people in Ukraine. Enough is enough. Wars always mean defeat, always," Francis added.

⚫️ Fighters of the 25th separate airborne brigade shot down a Russian Mi-8 helicopter

"It burns well. Well done, soldiers," wrote the commander of the Ground Forces Oleksandr Syrskyi under the video.

⚫️ New long-range munitions coming from Saab and Boeing for Ukraine.
t.me/United24media/14485

⚫️ Experts at the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) noted that the Russians and Putin have changed their rhetoric regarding the offensive of the invaders on Avdiivka and are "reducing expectations" about the advance of the invaders.

"Russian troops are unlikely to make significant breakthroughs or cut off Ukrainian forces in the settlement in the near future," the report says.

⚫️ Three children abducted by Russia will be returned to Ukraine via Qatar, — Reuters.

Citing a representative of the Qatari authorities, the agency reports that three Ukrainian children will be handed over to diplomats in Moscow this week in accordance with the mechanism created by Qatar. It is about a two-year-old boy, a nine-year-old boy and a 17-year-old girl.

According to a Qatari official, the return of these children will be a test of the system that the state created after months of secret negotiations with Moscow and Kyiv. Qatar's Minister of State for International Cooperation, Lolwa Al Khater, confirmed the mediation and called this week's repatriation "just the first step."

Russian Children's Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova, who is accused of facilitating the abduction of children from Ukraine, shared a short list of Ukrainian children who must be returned to a group of Qatari diplomats. They checked the identity of each child.

The representative of Qatar noted that it is currently unclear how many more children the Russian Federation will allow to return to Ukraine through the Qatari mechanism.

According to him, Qatari diplomats will accompany the children across the border with Estonia, Latvia or Belarus or to Qatar on a charter plane before returning to Ukraine.

⚫️ Andriy Serhan, the commander of the UAV platoon within the 59th Separate Mechanized Brigade named after Yakov Handziuk of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, has shared insights into the situation in the Avdiivka area. He anticipates a forthcoming wave of formidable assaults in the region.

Serhan observed a relative calm in the Donetsk region, likely attributed to heavy losses suffered by the occupiers. He noted that one brigade has already depleted its forces, and another regular military brigade has been deployed. The Ukrainian defenders are gearing up for a resolute defense, fully aware that the enemy may regroup and launch another assault in the future.

The military is diligently preparing for the challenges ahead, recognizing the strength and power of potential enemy attacks. The situation remains fluid and dynamic, and Ukrainian forces are committed to standing firm in the face of adversity.

⚫️ The head of the OSCE, Buyar Osmani, arrived in Kyiv for a visit, — the Macedonian edition of Civil Media.

Osmani spoke to journalists right on the train on the way to Kyiv and noted that Ukraine is the main priority during his country's chairmanship of the OSCE, because it is in Ukraine that the future of the security situation in Europe is decided.

"When the very foundations of the organization are under threat, it is necessary to focus on this. And this is exactly what is happening in Ukraine — Russian aggression against Ukraine is destroying the foundations of the international order," Osmani emphasized.

He said that during the visit he plans to meet "with officials and ordinary Ukrainians".

⚫️ The Constitutional Court of Georgia allowed to begin impeachment proceedings against President Salome Zurabishvili

The court found that Zurabishvili traveled abroad and met with officials without the consent of the Georgian government, thereby violating Article 52 of the country’s Constitution.

Previously, the ruling Georgian Dream party initiated the impeachment of Zurabishvili in early September due to the fact that the president continued foreign visits, despite refusals from the government, and made at least 10 trips to Europe.

⚫️ US Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen assured during a meeting with the heads of financial departments of EU countries that support for Ukraine remains a "top priority" for Washington against the background of the escalation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

⚫️ US Special Representative for Ukraine Reconstruction Penny Pritzker arrived in Kyiv, US Ambassador Bridget Brink announced and published a joint photo.

This is Pritzker's first visit to Ukraine since the appointment to this position in mid-September 2023.

⚫️ This is how the Ukrainian landings and fields on the front look from the camera of a night drone. "Craters" are projectile eruptions.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 45
Ukraine Invasion: Part 45
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2023 14:38

Live Ukraine

🔘 Russians have installed a barrier at the entrance to Sevastopol Bay, as evidenced by a new satellite image.

Presumably, this is how the occupiers want to resist attacks by naval drones. The image was published by OSINT analyst Brady Efric. [First Image]

🔘 While the Russian Defense Ministry is telling how it "destroyed another Ukrainian drone" in Belgorod region, sources in the SBU provided a video of a successful attack on the Krasnaya Yaruga power substation.

It was to this substation that enemy military facilities were connected, among other things. The video shows how the drones accurately hit the target.

This is another effort by the Security Service to make the occupiers understand that blackouts in response to numerous attacks on energy infrastructure are a reality that is already at their doorstep.

🇺🇸 US President Joe Biden is preparing a joint military aid package for Israel and Ukraine. According to White House National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, it will cost well over $2 billion.

Congress is still unable to pass legislation due to the crisis over the election of the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Biden is preparing a budget request that will combine aid to Israel and Ukraine to increase the chances of its approval.

🔘 The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is working to bring IKEA, H&M and Zara and other brands back to Ukraine.

Kuleba noted that McDonald's was brought back to Ukraine after he had a phone conversation with U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken.

"I believe that the more international businesses work here, the more confidence in victory it will give," the Foreign Minister emphasized.

🔘 Volodymyr Zelensky emphasizes that there will be more attacks by Russian troops on Ukrainian energy facilities as winter approaches and calls on local authorities, energy companies and telecom operators to prepare for this.

^"We have to be aware that there will be more such Russian strikes (like the one in Kherson on Sunday) as winter approaches. More attacks on generation facilities, on the grid. We need to be prepared for this.

We have strengthened air defense as much as possible in the current^
circumstances. And we are agreeing with our partners on such steps in defense that have not been used before," the President's evening address

🔘 Results of the first exit poll of the parliamentary elections in Poland:

"Law and Justice - 36.8%.
"Civic Coalition" - 31.6%
"Third Way" - 13%
"Left" - 8.6%.
"Confederation - 6.2%.

The turnout was 73%.

◾Explanation: The ruling Law and Justice party won first place in the elections to the Sejm, the lower house of Poland's parliament.

"Law and Justice is in favor of Ukraine, but they used the topic of Ukrainian grain to score votes during the campaign. It was quite populist on their part.

The opposition together has more seats than Law and Justice. Therefore, it may form a government without Law and Justice.

The anti-Ukrainian Confederation gained just over 6%. [Good, should have been less though]

🔘 Soldiers of the 25th separate airborne brigade shoot down an enemy Mi-8 helicopter
https://t.me/liveukraine_media/14730

🔘 Another completely destroyed column of Russian military vehicles near Avdiivka
https://t.me/liveukraine_media/14731

🔘 At night, Russians attacked Ukraine with an Iskander M ballistic missile, five Kh-59 guided missiles, and 12 Shahed attack drones.
Air defense forces destroyed two Kh-59 missiles and 11 Shahed drones.

❗️Consequences of a nighttime missile and drone attack:

▪️There was a hit in Kirovohrad region. One person was taken to the hospital. There was no damage to civilian infrastructure.

▪️Khmelnytsky region was attacked by kamikaze drones at night. No damage or casualties were reported.

▪️Dnipropetrovs'k region was attacked by missiles. One was shot down by air defense. Another hit the territory of Dniprovsky district.

▪️Three people were injured in Poltava region, including a child. Missile fragments damaged several private houses.

🔘 Experts at the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) have noticed that the Russians and Putin have changed their rhetoric about the occupiers' offensive on Avdiivka and are "lowering expectations" about the invaders' advance.

"Russian troops are unlikely to make significant breakthroughs or cut off Ukrainian forces in the town in the near term," the report says.

🔘 🇩🇪 The majority of Germans supportt* Chancellor Scholz's decision not to transfer long-range Taurus missiles to Ukraine for the time being.

According to a poll conducted by the YouGov institute at the request of the dpa, 55% of respondents agree with Scholz's position, while 26% consider it wrong. [FFS grow some balls]

🔘 Ukrainian forces destroyed a Russian checkpoint near the village of Grafovka in Belgorod region.
The video was provided by sources in the Main Intelligence Directorate.
https://t.me/liveukraine_media/14738

🔘 Just Kyiv and the dog Patron

Have a nice day, everyone!

Ukraine Invasion: Part 45
Ukraine Invasion: Part 45
Ukraine Invasion: Part 45
BezMills · 16/10/2023 14:38

MissConductUS · 16/10/2023 14:12

This gets complicated under the LOAC (laws of armed combat). You're required to discriminate between enemy combatants who are Hors de Combat (out of the battle) due to surrender, capture, complete incapacitation, parachuting from a disabled aircraft, etc., and those who, though wounded, could still present a danger to you. If the latter, you can and should kill them or render them Hors de Combat.

More here from the Lieber Institute at West Point, which studies the laws of armed combat.

Down Is Not Always Out: Hors De Combat in the Close Fight

@MissConductUS That was really interesting, thanks . I'd picked up from language used in the video I've seen (I think the particular video has been seen by millions of people) that this was something that the soldiers had been trained to do, and I assumed there were rules etc in play.

As a civilian, it is not always easy to understand the reasons why certain things are allowed and others not, so giving a link as you did, really helps, thanks again!

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 14:57

The relationship between Putin and Israel suddenly becomes clear to me. I thought it all related to the Syria issue but I saw a documentary on the founding of Israel the other day which said the majority of jews came from Russia. So I've just googled Netanyahu and his grandfather was Russian and his dad was born in the Russian empire.

blueshoes · 16/10/2023 14:58

Went AWOL for a bit due to family commitments but back and reporting for duty with Desdemona to give Ducks a proper break. Still reeling from news of the Hamas attack.

Kyiv Independent Telegram

⚡️SBU: 57 collaborators involved in the torture https://kyivindependent.com/sbu-57-collaborators-involved-in-the-torture-of-ukrainians-in-kherson-oblast-identified-4/ of Ukrainians in Kherson Oblast identified.

⚡️Media: Ukrainians evacuated (https://kyivindependent.com/media-ukrainians-evacuated-from-israel-paid-hundreds-of-euros-for-their-own-tickets/) from Israel paid hundreds of euros for their own tickets.

⚡️OSCE chief visits Kyiv (https://kyivindependent.com/osce-chief-visits-kyiv-meets-foreign-minister-kuleba/), meets Foreign Minister Kuleba.

⚡️Qatar to return (https://kyivindependent.com/qatari-diplomats-to-facilitate-the-repatriation-of-4-deported-ukrainian-children-2/) 3 Ukrainian children deported to Russia.

⚡️UK Defense Ministry: Russian mercenary group Redut recruiting former Wagner militants (https://kyivindependent.com/uk-defense-ministry-russian-mercenary-group-redut-recruiting-former-wagner-militants/) under the guise of "volunteers," including former Wagner militants, the U.K. Defense Ministry reported on Oct. 16. The process is likely supervised and financed by the Russian military intelligence agency (GRU), the ministry wrote in its latest intelligence update.

⚡️Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov to visit (https://kyivindependent.com/russian-foreign-minister-to-visit-north-korea-this-week/) North Korea this week amid Western concerns about extended military cooperation between Moscow and Pyongyang.

⚡️Penny Pritzker, the U.S. Special Representative for Economic Recovery in Ukraine arrives (https://kyivindependent.com/us-representative-for-ukraines-economic-recovery-arrives-in-kyiv/) in Kyiv on Oct. 16, U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bridget Brink reported. This is Pritzker's first visit to Ukraine since the appointment in September.

⚡️Second evacuation flight carrying 155 Ukrainians leaves (https://kyivindependent.com/second-evacuation-flight-carrying-155-ukrainians-leaves-israel/) Israel and arrived in the Romanian city of Cluj-Napoca with 155 passengers, most of whom were women and children, Ukraine's Embassy in Israel announced on Oct. 16. Around 260 Ukrainian nationals are still located in Gaza and have not been able to evacuate from the besieged territory.

⚡️Russian attacks overnight damage (https://kyivindependent.com/russian-attacks-damage-buildings-in-dnipropetrovsk-oblast/) energy infrastructure, homes in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast.

⚡️AP: Putin's visit to China on Oct.16 signals (https://kyivindependent.com/ap-putins-visit-to-china-signals-necessity-of-beijings-economic-support/) necessity of Beijing's economic support for Russia as it wages its war against Ukraine, the Associated Press (AP) reported on Oct. 15. Putin told reporters on Oct. 13 that he and Chinese leader Xi Jinping will discuss their nations' deepening economic ties during the Belt and Road Forum.

⚡️ISW: Russia tones down (https://kyivindependent.com/isw-russia-tones-down-rhetoric-about-avdiivka-offensive/)rhetoric about Avdiivka offensive. Facing heavy losses and stalled momentum in their attempt to encircle Avdiivka, Russian forces made no territorial gains on Oct. 15, while the Russian information space changed its tone regarding the offensive.

⚡️Ukrainian sappers find (https://kyivindependent.com/over-700-000-explosives-discovered-by-ukraines-sappers/) over 700,000 explosive devices.

⚡️Russia adds (https://kyivindependent.com/russia-heightens-black-sea-strike-capability/) more missile carriers to Black Sea forces. Two new Russian naval frigates capable of launching up to 20 Kalibr cruise missiles are already on active combat duty in the Black Sea, according to the Ukrainian military.

⚡️Air Force: Western countries leased (https://kyivindependent.com/air-force-ukraine-receives-air-defense-systems-on-lease/) Ukraine air defense systems.

⚡️Governor: Russian airstrike kills 2 (https://kyivindependent.com/governor-russia-airstrike-kills-2-in-kharkiv-oblast/) in Kharkiv Oblast.

⚡️UK Defense Ministry: Russia constructs railway line (https://kyivindependent.com/uk-defense-ministry-russia-constructs-railway-line-to-mariupol-to-ease-logistics-in-southern-front/) to Mariupol to ease logistics in southern front.

⚡️Official: Partial blackout in Kherson as Russia struck critical infrastructure (https://kyivindependent.com/official-partial-blackout-in-kherson-as-russia-struck-critical-infrastructure/) with two guided bombs, causing a partial blackout and running water supply interruptions, Roman Mrochko, the head of the Kherson city military administration, reported in a series of Telegram posts on Oct. 15.

⚡️Media: SBU attacks energy facility in Russia’s Belgorod region, causes blackout (https://kyivindependent.com/media-sbu-claims-blackout-in-russias-belgorod-region-after-drone-strikes/).

⚡️ Activist: 5,000 human rights abuses recorded (https://kyivindependent.com/activist-over-5-000-human-rights-violations-recorded-in-crimea-during-russian-occupation/) in Crimea during Russian occupation since the start of the Russian occupation in 2014, mainly against the Crimean Tatar community.

Voting underway in Poland with high stakes for Ukraine.
(https://kyivindependent.com/poland-goes-to-elections-with-high-stakes-for-ukraine/)Poles are casting their ballots in the parliamentary elections on Oct. 15 as the ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party seeks to secure a third consecutive term in power. The result may have a strong impact on the future of Polish-Ukrainian relations, which have been marked by diplomatic disputes over the past few weeks.

⚡️ Survey: Majority of Ukrainians turn away from Russian media, music.
(https://kyivindependent.com/survey-majority-of-ukrainians-stop-consuming-russian-media-products/)Between 68-81% of Ukrainians have stopped consuming Russian media products, including both official and anti-government political content, Media Detector reported on Oct. 15, citing its survey.

According to the latest phase of the study from late 2022 to early 2023, "from 68 % to 81% of respondents said they had completely abandoned Russian-made media products, including music and both official and the opposition's socio-political content," Halyna Petrenko, the NGO's director, said.

⚡️ Biden readies spending package of over $2 billion including aid for Israel, Ukraine.
(https://kyivindependent.com/white-house-upcoming-military-aid-package-for-israel-ukraine-worth-over-2-billion/) U.S. President Joe Biden's administration is preparing a funding package worth significantly more than $2 billion, which will include military aid for Ukraine and Israel, national security advisor Jake Sullivan said on Oct. 15. Sullivan said in an interview with CBS' Face the Nation program that the White House will lead intensive talks with Congress in the following week to secure approval for the package.

⚡️ Mines kill 2, injure 2 over past day, victims include children. (https://kyivindependent.com/child-killed-another-injured-by-mines-in-mykolaiv-oblast/)A 14-year-old boy was killed, and a 12-year-old boy was injured by mines in a field in Mykolaiv Oblast's Bashtanka district on Oct. 15. Another deadly incident took place in Chernihiv Oblast on the same day. One local resident was killed and another injured by mines in a local forest, Klymenko reported.

⚡️ IMF launches fund for supporting Ukraine's reforms.
(https://kyivindependent.com/imf-launches-fund-for-supporting-ukraines-reforms/) Donors have already allocated $14 million to the IMF's Ukraine Capacity Development Fund, with the goal being to raise $65 million.

⚡ Kuleba: Foreign Ministry working to bring global brands like IKEA, H&M, and Zara, which ceased operations in Ukraine after the full-scale war started in 2022 (https://kyivindependent.com/kuleba-ukraine-works-on-bringing-back-ikea-h-m-and-zara-back-to-country/)back to Ukraine.

⚡ Governor: More than 90 explosions reported in Sumy Oblast (https://kyivindependent.com/governor-russia-shells-sumy-oblast-over-90-times-with-combat-drones-and-rocket-launchers/) over past day. No casualties were reported.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 45
MissConductUS · 16/10/2023 15:07

BezMills · 16/10/2023 14:38

@MissConductUS That was really interesting, thanks . I'd picked up from language used in the video I've seen (I think the particular video has been seen by millions of people) that this was something that the soldiers had been trained to do, and I assumed there were rules etc in play.

As a civilian, it is not always easy to understand the reasons why certain things are allowed and others not, so giving a link as you did, really helps, thanks again!

I'm glad I could help clarify it. Of course, it's unclear to people who haven't been appropriately trained. This is one of many reasons why it's so awful for the Russians to send conscripts into battle with little to no training. They also have no understanding of the LOAC.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2023 15:25

Just for clarification ref the LOAC discussion which I think may have been prompted by a Tweet I shared. The video in question showed a Russian soldier shooting dead another wounded Russian soldier and then robbing him, so this wasn't a case of the wounded person posing a threat it was pure brutality and avarice.

MissConductUS · 16/10/2023 15:32

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2023 15:25

Just for clarification ref the LOAC discussion which I think may have been prompted by a Tweet I shared. The video in question showed a Russian soldier shooting dead another wounded Russian soldier and then robbing him, so this wasn't a case of the wounded person posing a threat it was pure brutality and avarice.

I saw that video, too. He shot him and then stole his ammunition. Savages. Of course the Russian soldier he killed likely had no hope of medical aid, but still. Barbaric.

In the US Army, soldiers have a solemn duty that no one is left behind on the battlefield, wounded or dead. That is part of what gives them the confidence to fight.

No Man Left Behind

No man left behind

WASHINGTON — His entire body was covered in sweat and blood, having been shot too many times to count. After dragging a wounded Soldier to the helicopte...

https://www.army.mil/article/264519/no_man_left_behind

BezMills · 16/10/2023 15:37

The thing that started me thinking and made my make my first post today was this (where probably as per usual, Putin is accusing UAF of things he knows his forces are actually doing)

"DesdamonasHandkerchief · Yesterday 13:10

Some Twitter 'highlights':

⚫️ Glasnostgone:
Today Putin said Russian forces in #Ukraine are conducting an ‘active defence.’ That "active defence" involves the shooting dead of wounded Russian soldiers with a bullet in the head. This small grim scene is from Russia's ongoing attacks towards the eastern town of Avdiivka. Numerous videos & reports indicate Russia's forces are suffering large numbers of casualties."

It reminded me of a particular video I'd seen of a storming operation. I assumed, and this is backed up by the link from @MissConductUS , that what I'd seen was something that was part of the training. When they're going room-room or through a trench network, they have to be sure an enemy is actually out of the fight (the term hors de combat was new to me) before they can safely proceed past them.

Naem · 16/10/2023 15:54

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 14:57

The relationship between Putin and Israel suddenly becomes clear to me. I thought it all related to the Syria issue but I saw a documentary on the founding of Israel the other day which said the majority of jews came from Russia. So I've just googled Netanyahu and his grandfather was Russian and his dad was born in the Russian empire.

I don't know what you were watching, but I fear you have been peddled misinformation.

Wikipedia I believe has it right:

"Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews"

One of the big issues historically in Israel (when it was not fighting wars) was the overlooking of the middle eastern Jewish population, who were actually the clear majority at that point (this was prior to the Russian imigration in the 70s and 80s) in the early years of founding the State. Indeed the turfing out of the party of Ben Gurion in favour of Menachem Begin and Likud was due, almost entirely, to the fact that Menachem Begin, although a European Jew, courted the middle eastern Jews - who had not realised their political power due to their numbers.

Since then, there has been much more of a reconciliation, and today increasing numbers of Israelis are in mixed marriages, European and middle Eastern, and so their children have both heritages (that is also the case for me, my husband and my children, my family comes originally from Lithuania, his comes from Syria via Egypt, my children therefore have both. And so many of our friends, even those who themselves are purely one or another, their children are now marrying, and marrying between communities - it is going to be hard to distinguish in a generation or two). But still many of the older members of my husband's communities within Israel complain of discrimination and being treated as lower class.

Secondly, Netanyahu's father was born in Warsaw, which I hope you are not confusing with Russia, although no doubt Putin would like to. His grandfather was born in Belarus (which I know is currently in bed with Russia, but there are a lot of Belerussians who most emphatically don't agree, including the majority at the last election). What you might be confusing all this with, is the "pale of settlement" - the Russian empire for many, many years would not allow Jews to come into Russia proper - and only allowed them to live in an area that was outside those "pure" borders. Wikipedia says "The Pale of Settlement included all of modern-day Belarus and Moldova, much of Lithuania, Ukraine and east-central Poland, and relatively small parts of Latvia and what is now the western Russian Federation)." On the basis of your program, President Zelensky is Russian.

I am no supporter of Netanyahu, but I suspect his interactions with Putin and Russia, to the extent they go beyond those that someone like Bennett or Lapid would be willing to entertain, are much more about the way populist leaders tend to like one another (think Erdogan, Trump) than any spurious historical connection.

Sorry for the derail from Ukraine. For those interested in Ukraine, note the reason there were so many Jews historically in Ukraine was precisely because it was not regarded as sufficiently Russia proper. Jews were pushed eastward by oppression and banishment, until they came up against Russia, where they were not allowed in, so ended up in crescent of land in the middle, one of which pieces was Ukraine.

Naem · 16/10/2023 16:16

*Sorry, fell into the same trap here - "this was prior to the Russian imigration in the 70s and 80s)" - should have read "this was prior to the Soviet immigration in the 70s and 80s)" - the point being that while the biggest group at that time were in fact Russian - because during the last 50 years many more Jews were now living in what we now call Russia, many were also Ukranian or other Jews whom the Soviet Union was not letting out. The campaign was to free the "Soviet" Jews, not just the Russian ones. Around a million Jews then came to Israel, which pretty much equalised the numbers to those you saw in Wikipedia, but even those were by no means all from Russia.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 17:03

I said his father was born in the Russian empire, which is correct. I said his grandfather was a Russian citizen, which is also correct.

I wasn't clear about the migration of Russian jews to Israel. I didn't mean the majority of Israelis are descended from Russians. I meant at one point there was a massive influx. I was rushing when I wrote it and didn't choose my words wisely.

The documentary was the BBC Storyville one called Blue Box. I found it really interesting.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 17:15

Sorry I didn't want offend anyone or derail. I just found it interesting as I have dual citizenship by descent where the 2 countries had conflict and it did affect me in ways it didn't affect my friends. I remember as a teen being so angry but also really defensive if others, understandably, expressed the same anger. I guess I'm just projecting.

Naem · 16/10/2023 17:17

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 17:03

I said his father was born in the Russian empire, which is correct. I said his grandfather was a Russian citizen, which is also correct.

I wasn't clear about the migration of Russian jews to Israel. I didn't mean the majority of Israelis are descended from Russians. I meant at one point there was a massive influx. I was rushing when I wrote it and didn't choose my words wisely.

The documentary was the BBC Storyville one called Blue Box. I found it really interesting.

What I was objecting to what the implication (which was virtually explicit) that being born in the Russian empire equals or explains being pro modern Russia. On that basis everybody in Ukraine should be, according to this, pro modern Russia, which is exactly what Putin alleges they are or ought to be (not to mention most of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia etc). Netanyahu's grandfather was as much born in the Russian empire as the entirety of the grandfathers of all the people fighting in Ukraine. I confess on this issue, I don't really trust the BBC, and wouldn't be surprised if at least subtly there was a bit of propaganda creeping in. I doubt they would spot that it was actually anti-Ukranian propaganda that they were deploying in analysing Israel, if it felt useful, but in doing so, they end up legitimising it in its use against Ukraine, whether that was their intention or not.
In fact, being born in what was the Russian empire at the time that Netanyahu's grandfather was born, when it is not core Russia, is more likely in all cases to make one anti-Russian as we can see from the various votes by Ukranians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Belarussians etc

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 17:28

That wasn't what I was trying to imply at all. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Igotjelly · 16/10/2023 19:34

Just back from a big sports competition with the Ukrainian national team in Europe. What an absolutely wonderful group of people.

Greenshake · 16/10/2023 20:03

This sounds lovely 🙂 every Ukrainian I have met has been endlessly positive and it’s so refreshing.

Igotjelly · 16/10/2023 20:34

I wore my wee saltire Ukraine flag pin and had so many people just saying thank you for not forgetting about them. They’re worried that the crisis in the Middle East will lead to the West forgetting and losing interest.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 16/10/2023 22:01

I have a Ukrainian necklace that I wear to school each day. One of my classmates is a secret Putin apologist and I know it really annoys her, but she can't say anything without outing herself. It my very small act of 'fuck you'.

Greenshake · 17/10/2023 00:39

I have my bumper sticker on my car, my mobile phone case and my pin badge. There will be no forgetting from me 🙂

mids2019 · 17/10/2023 06:40

Do we think that the US as the main backer of Ukraine has something to lose in the worlds eyes of the forthcoming incursion into Gaza leads to significant Palestinian casualties. Putin is playing this to the max putting forward motions to the U.N. for restraint in the conflict and now looks to pivoting to supporting Hamas/Israel is a cynical attempt to possibly gain more support in the Arab world and look to be some piece in a global anti West view point.

One concern of mine is that over the next year we may see significant portions of the population sick of bloodshed generally and peace may be more of a priority compared to sovreignty. If the West pivots to solutions to conflict that pressurised negotiations then it may be Ukraine comes under pressure to come to a peaceful solution and that cannot be at the cost of sovreignty.

The thing I find frustrating is that there is continued coverage of a Palesriniann humanitarian disaster unfolding where the IDF are backed and supplied by the US. Biden needs to show that as well as supporting Israel's resolve to defeat Hamas he is acutely conscious of the Palestinian civilian suffering or else the US loses some of its moral position in condemning Russia in its military endeavours.
T

The global press need to not forget Ukraine and the prioritization of conflict reporting is important in my view. You get fantastic granular new here but in the MSM Ukraine is a little sidelined.

Igotjelly · 17/10/2023 06:48

Agree Ukraine has almost disappeared from the front pages! For example Putin is currently in China meeting Xi, previously that would have been up there in the headlines!