Government to *finally* look at banning XL bullies

[NoCharnce]

Thank goodness. I cannot believe it has taken so long* to even look at banning these awful creatures (I say that as a dog lover). Looks like the viral footage of an XL mauling two men who were trying to defend an 11 year old girl is the straw that broke the camels back.

Tweet direct from Home Sec: https://x.com/suellabraverman/status/1700924751646982312?s=46&t=QlNZXgFJWDXuxa3K3yo7ag

*policy makers have been captured by the RSPCA/Dog’s Trust etc “it’s not the breed, it’s the owner” dogma

This is such a dense argument. Men aren’t dogs first of all.

And as many have said, yes it is the breed. They are bred to be strong and aggressive, just like collies are bred to herd, labs are bred to retrieve, Great Pyrenees are bred to protect livestock. That is their purpose and they are living up to it.

@Anewnamea Yes, I posted as XL's have Pitbull in their makeup.

People who say ''But not all Pitbulls/XL's are like that'' - These types of dog come up time after time in attacks on people and other dogs.

The facts are that they are hair-trigger aggressive, one can be so say ''Fine'' then just snap and go into a red mist of rage.

They are not necessary to own - Why should innocent people and pets be killed because of arrogant XL owners wanting to own that type of heavy, aggressive dog.

It's not scaremongering, it's fact.

Statistics speak for themselves. Reported dog bites 2023 in UK so far..

Thanks and fair enough, agree hyperbole not helpful so retract the comparison to wolves. Still don't feel reassured on meeting anything with the strength and bite force of an XL bully after my horrible experience, but will try to stick to the facts rather than fear based assumptions 😊

Where did that chart come from? Those statistics do not look right at all. If it is recording dog bites that need treatment i.e tetanus jab and operations rather than fatal attacks then Lab would be number 1 on the list, followed by dachshund and chihuahua. Unless of course, 2023 has seen a drastic reduction in neurotic dachshunds and chihuahuas in the UK, but that also seems unlikely.

Also, where are these stats coming from? Any of them, including the ones which state Labs are the no1 biters in the UK?

When my late terrier bit me and I went for an x-ray, tetanus, and antibiotics no-one asked me what breed he was or made any record other than "dog bite".

Yes! Agree! There is a big difference between XL bullies and other breeds. Having breeding for aggression, hair line trigger response, massive jaw and bite force AND the strength to overpower most adults is terrifying. I work in healthcare and have done home visits. I've had staffies growl and snap at me, but they have been easily controlled and held back by owners. And they could give a nasty bite but would struggle to reach my neck/head! An XL bully, as we have seen many times since they were introduced to this country, can easily reach and overpower to bite an adult on the neck and kill them. Absolutely do not belong in our communities. Keep them safely behind good gates so they can't escape your homes, apologist owners (I've seen reports around 3 attacks over last week being when an XL bully has escaped it's home! Including sadly the fatal one), and muzzle them on walks so no more dogs, children and adults have to die or suffer awful injury!

There’s a video doing the rounds of the poor man who died in Staffordshire recently after being mauled by 2 - it is absolutely horrific the poor man, something needs to be done ASAP.

Was in the park today and someone had their large XL bully unleashed, lots of people and children around. Then the imbecile owners decided to take its collar off too. It was well behaved at that point but if it turned they would have had no chance. Dogs should be leashed and muzzled unless in a designated area.

@May1988 kangals, Presa Canario, cane Corso, all meet that criteria though. They’re all large, extremely powerful dogs used to fight and to protect, no? A kangal has a bite force of 743psi. A Boerbel 800psi- responsible breeders of which there are very few breeders anyway will NOT give you a puppy if you have a child.

A wolf is 1,000 bite force for context.

This ban will not work.

Legislation needs to stop breeders in the first instance.

Interesting - I've only met a couple of Cane Corsos up close, and I didn't think they gave the same aggressive vibe as the XL bullies I have met/encountered in public. My understanding is that only bull breeds and other already banned breeds were truly bred for fighting, so have that hair line trigger temperament, as well as 'tearing' injury type jaw? Things like Canes more for guarding property etc, not actively breaking free to fight or chase after smaller creatures (other dogs, children etc) I am genuinely interested/asking, not pretending to know all the ins and outs of different big dog breeds....Personally I love dogs, and have had different breeds in family, including staffies, but I wouldn't have ANY big dog bred for guarding or fighting, or bull breed in general around children. Yes, any dog can bite (my at the time 1 year old got too close to family Cav KC when she was under a table eating without us realising she was there and got bitten. A very different outcome that would have been if the dog in question had a bully bite force and tenacity!)

Essentially, I know some people will always want big/guard dogs but there should be more regulation on breeding in general to ensure wellbeing of the dogs and puppies, and licenses would be a good place to encourage responsible ownership. If there are statistical trends and breed indicators for a breed being dangerous to people and other dogs then yes, I am happy that they are banned to stop further breeding...and existing pets should be muzzled in public, kept on strong short lead, pass an independent temperament assessment and safely contained with appropriate doors and gate systems at home. Individual choices for owning ANY big dogs that can easily cause death and injury to innocent bystanders, most often children, should not trump the rights of the rest of us to walk around our local areas and parks with our children and dogs and feel safe.

My understanding is that only bull breeds and other already banned breeds were truly bred for fighting, so have that hair line trigger temperament, as well as 'tearing' injury type jaw?

Pitbulls were originally bred for ratting. French Bulldogs were originally bred as companion dogs. The Old English Bulldog was bred as a companion dog.

Hardly any of the bulldog breeds were bred originally for dog fighting.

Why are bulldogs called bulldogs though? Was the bull part of the name not because they were used for bull baiting?
I genuinely have no idea by the way. Just curious.

News has been updated today regarding XL’s they’ll have to be neutered/spayed, kept on a lead and muzzled when out in public and insured.

Pit bull terriers are descended from a cross between bulldogs (bred for bull baiting) and a broad category of smaller terriers (used for hunting anything a bit smaller - from rats to foxes). The idea was the get the gameness of a terrier and the size and athleticism of a bulldog (don't picture current English bulldogs when I say that!)

That cross became known as the bull and terrier, which was a cross used for bull and bear fighting.

At that stage, they were as much a breed as today's cockapoos are.

When bull and bear baiting was outlawed, a lot of the same people moved onto dog fighting.

A lot happens in dog genetics really very quickly due to selective breeding, but it is disingenuous to suggest that pit bulls were originally made for ratting.

If nothing else - a bit of logic dictates that you want a smaller dog like a Jack Russell for ratting - they're much more able to get into smaller spaces where rats will hide than a pit bull is.

By ratting I meant the sport of ratting that replaced bull baiting before dog fighting became popular rather than the vermin control kind many terrier breeds were bred for. Pitbulls were thrown into "pits" of rats and bets would placed on how long it would take for the dog to kill all the rats, hence the "Pit" in their name. This is why they wanted a cross between a terrier and the stronger bull-baiting dogs.

They were later used for dog fighting.

I'd think that by using the term "ratting" you're trying to make it sound less aggressive. I'd say the majority of people think of "ratting" as being the hunting out rats by small terriers. Admiting that by "ratting" you mean putting the type of dogs originally used for bull baiting in a pit to encourage them to kill smaller animals means you are aware that means they were still being bred to be aggressive at that point. Then you admit after that they were bred and used for dog fighting. So far they've been bred for bull baiting, killing smaller animals in a pit, then dog fighting. Surely you must admit this means pitbulls (and dogs from similar lineage) have been bred for fighting and aggression?

@ToBrieOrNotToBrieThatIsTheQuestion @Frequency that's fascinating. Could you recommend a book or website which goes into similar detail re the history of dog breeds?

London ratcatchers could make a few bob selling live rats for the sport of ratting.

They also occasionally found a rat of an interesting colour, or an albino. This eventually led to the development of the modern-day fancy rat (which, kept in pairs, make excellect though sadly short-lived pets ).

The Wikipedia pages provide you with a decent canter through how various breeds were developed.

It's worth knowing in this context that the Americans often use "pit bull" as a catch all term for any bull breed, including staffies, which isn't especially useful when we're assessing risk. In the UK it refers specifically to the American Pit Bull terrier, and websites don't always make it completely clear if they're using the British or American definitions.

You can go down a bit of a rabbithole on wiki and it's important to remember that almost no breed today looks the same as it did 200 years ago. It's more pronounced for some breeds - like English bulldogs - but they've all been selectively bred to a significant degree.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier

BullyWatch has a more detailed, more critical history of the American Bully
https://bullywatch.link/2023/09/12/the-american-bully-a-history/

Their article on Kimbo is also particularly interesting https://bullywatch.link/2023/08/01/finding-kimbo/

I think most people think of term "ratting" to mean vermin control, rather than the rat baiting you're referring to

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-baiting

It seems a wide variety of dogs turned their hand to rat baiting at one time - some bull breed x terrier and some pure terrier - including the Yorkie. It certainly wasn't mainly or exclusively bull-and-terrier dogs (as they were then known) or pitbulls.

It seems to have been more a case of existing breeds turning their hand to something still legal than being bred specifically for it. A bit like my terrier might turn his hand to agility now that modern pest control has moved on a bit.

Dogs: Working Origins and Traditional Tasks - Mike Loades

This is a pretty good book that looks at breed origins of lots of working breeds.

The books I used the most for my course were these two;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404300816626?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A13UOqMSBlTpmG7NGQfTwhxA58&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=404300816626&targetid=1647205088760&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006886&poi=&campaignid=17206177401&mkgroupid=136851690655&rlsatarget=pla-1647205088760&abcId=9300866&merchantid=137585763&gclid=Cj0KCQjwx5qoBhDyARIsAPbMagDFqf6ykVKxeVDRxLCmv__sqiFAFUTwxlFJk2_TbmyyIfWUGczzgugaApTLEALw_wcB

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31514865467&ref_=ps_ggl_2039220669&cm_mmc=ggl--UK_Shopp_Tradestandard--product_id=UK9780684855301USED-_-keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwx5qoBhDyARIsAPbMagCszYEszJBN8A-MhVEaxawLx757iaqyZmDCiEVpQZat6k30kwIVleEaAqBvEALw_wcB

This study is really interesting too and as far as I can tell it is still ongoing;

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329353995_The_silver_fox_domestication_experiment

It's fascinating- and shows how important temperament is- it IS passed down genetically.

These XLBullies are bred from known human killers on both sides of the 'family tree'

Used for Bull baiting.
You can see the style of dog in this aquatint.
A bull was tethered, and set upon by these dogs.

Basically, all these things were driven by two things, (some) men's acceptance of cruelty, in the name of "sport". And the other? You can gamble on sport.

When I first lived in NE England in the 1970's, badger baiting was still a problem up here