Forced to install heat pumps

[forcedtogetheatpumps]

Yesterday, there was an article in the DM (yes, I know) about a Bill currently going through Parliament which basically says that home owners and LLs are going to be forced to install heat pumps otherwise they'll be fined or imprisoned.

How are people going to afford this?

You won't be going to prison if you own property. If you own property you'll "just" get a fine

And if I don't have £ 15K? which let's face it,a lot of people can't just whistle up like that.

What I do with my property is up to me. Not this shower.

This bill has slipped under the radar. Now the cat's out of the bag we'll see.

It has slipped under the radar, hopefully the DM will be like a dog with a bone over it

They will have their property taken from them.

You'll own nothing and be happy.

I was thinking the same. The MP I was quoting last night made some very good points about it.

Any non payment of a fine can result in a prison sentence. It doesn’t have to specify it in this bill.

also I can’t see the bit which says home owners only get a fine. May have missed it as it’s a lengthy document

Yeah and they’ll probably still have to install a heat pump before it can be seized 😆

I don't think it does say homeowners only get a fine. A fine can be enforced on people with property. People with no assets can't be forced to pay money they don't have, so prison would be the alternative.

Maybe they'll just be billed for all the works needed to bring their criminal house up to EPC AAAA or whatever the new standard will be.

People will support this bill. Just watch. Look what happened with covid. There'll be a big push on global boiling as it's now being called and people will DEMAND that something is done as we're all doomed.

Isn't £15k about what a lot of the work will cost for the average house. That's a coincidence

You think people pay 7k for a new boiler?

@bellac11 it is for us as we need a whole new system. But I understand that it wouldn’t be for those just needing a like for like replacement.

Most people have a like for like replacement, ours was about 1500, albeit about 4 years ago now, so say 2k now and we had to borrow money to afford that

My dad's new gas boiler in a tiny flat was 4k.
It was British gas, we went with them because he's elderly and didn't want any problems but what a rip off!
I'm in France where lots of people have heat pumps and when it's really cold they still have to light a woodburner.
We've got a woodburner and electric radiators.

Until large scale industry and transport pollution is tackled not much will change.
And if we all stopped using oil tomorrow what would happen to world economies.

Yes British Gas are notorious. I dont know how people afford this stuff

The big areas to tackle are

Space heating - probably the most expensive issue to sort in the uk. Building standards for new build should be mandating heat pumps and proper insulation and proper protection against heat. But politically pushes the up front cost to the home owner , hits the less well off the most , so I suspect it will happen

Transport - political will required - free bus and train services 24*7
Significant expansion of park and ride and increased things like ULEZ or per mile pricing ( postcode based perhaps so that rural people have an allowance to the transport hubs )
Probably also means more WFH and less London focus for offices
Uplifting train network and reinstatement of many closed lines. Lines built form ports to distribution hubs
Raised taxes needed , should hit the richer harder with the less well off benefiting form lower transport costs and job opportunities so unlikely to happen

Agriculture - diet changes needed , much less meat and diary _ progress here but very slow compared to what is needed . We could :should use our new independence from Europe to impose high taxes on carbon- intensive food ( oh I think Europe might be doing that but we are not ) . That should be cost neutral or lower cost for most people but high levels of meat eating is very divisive

Electricity - why we stopped investment in the battery factory, why we let the market control out wind investment ? This is way to protect most people from future energy prices but requires large up front investment which can only come from higher taxes on the rich so again we will be left to pay the future costs

We are sticking to woodburner and electric radiators as well. Last year with the fires in Bordeaux they were pressed for seasoned wood but this year they are all over the place advertising and it has gone down in price this year. We moved here nearly 2 years ago and still haven't got through the pile left by the last owners. Got about 3 weeks of their wood left then we start on the pile we got in the spring.

We also have a wood behind us that belongs to the farmer with a fair amount of old trees that have fallen so I am clearing it tree by tree to provide supplementary wood whilst also clearing walkways through it. They don't care, it is only used as a windbreak for their crops so the more space I clear the more new trees can spring up.

They also have to consider apartments and flats, my Dad’s 1990’s flat doesn’t allow heat pumps because all outside space is communal. He did ask, so there will have to be some clauses for that. He does have triple glazing though.

Transport - political will required - free bus and train services 247*

What pays for this 'free' transport?

Raised taxes needed , should hit the richer harder with the less well off

Define 'richer' and 'less well off'

Uplifting train network and reinstatement of many closed lines

Who pays for this?

requires large up front investment which can only come from higher taxes on the rich

Define 'rich'. At least you're honest that the answer is tax tax tax and more tax.

Dh has a new build rental property that he's now considering selling due to not being willing to have a heat pump fitted.

I don't want to be hermetically sealed in my house in order to facilitate heat pump functioning as I'm a fresh air/ventilation freak.

All these governmental interventions are going to be fruitless in the face of India's and China's behaviour regarding their energy production and use. China's carbon output in the last eight years is more than ours since the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Whatever we do from now on is going to have zero effect.

Haven't they cancelled all hydrogen plans?

We all pay but in proportion to ability

Anyone with inheritance to hand over - tax that much harder as that's perpetuating inequality and propping up house prices anyway

Plus the top 10 to 20% of income

Corporations - there are a lot of very high profits that aren't being invested in our future

Because it's a lot cheaper than climate change adaptation

We are fucked
You have two options
Head in the sand and pay for it later or start paying for changes now and pay less overall and reduce the scale of the problem overall

Ok so if you have less than 10 years life expectancy and no kids o guess you wouldn't care

As a country we can afford it

But too many people choose to spend on stuff that makes the problem worse and choose to pretend it won't be that bad and chose to think they'll be ok and choose to pretend they can't change it because China or whatever

I mean I'd rather a fair taxation policy than a future where by the rich ( top 10% by the look of this country) get heating and travel and the poor get nothing and people freeze to death because they can't afford heating die from overheating because they can't get out of the heat or starve to death because they can't afford to get to work and can't afford insurance on the home they lost to the floods

I'd rather fair taxation that builds a sustainable fair society for all rather than an every man for himself societal collapse - how wrong is that ?

Think we wouldnt descend to war when people can't afford food because it's too expensive because it's too scarce ?

Fines on top of fines. It's essentially going to be a tax on home ownership. Presumably they want everyone in rental properties. Only the rich will own property in the future.

Remember, you will own nothing......

As a country we can afford it

National debt is 100% of GDP. Even if we could afford the ideas you just pulled out of your backside and they were even vaguely capable of implementation, how long do you think they would take to put in place?

Remind me how well HS2's going at coming in on time and on budget? and that's ONE project.

I think the long term plan is for most people to be in rental properties but not ones owned by small landlords, instead it will be ones owned by places like John Lewis and the banks. Our house is a 1930s one and I expect that when we die DS will just do whatever and put it up for auction as it won't be worth much. If we need care maybe we can hope for a prison sentence instead as it will be cheaper for a year