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Lucy letby - New threads (Part 3)

244 replies

WhiteFire · 01/09/2023 18:17

The last thread has closed. I have kept the thread title in line with the previous one for continuity.

I have just started listening to the Daily Mail podcasts which gives a good overview.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-trial-of-lucy-letby/id1653090985

I've downloaded an app called Radio net so I can download them and then listen off line.

The evidence against her is compelling, the defence is pretty much "it wasn't me"

OP posts:
JanieEyre · 05/09/2023 11:27

BIossomtoes · 05/09/2023 11:20

The defence for the two babies poisoned with insulin was that it was deliberate but someone else (unspecified) did it. It’s like the big boys did it and ran away.

Interesting. On the previous thread, one of her defenders was trying to suggest it couldn't have happened because she couldn't have guaranteed getting insulin into the right nutrition bag in the fridge, but that would presumably apply whoever killed her.

MavisMcMinty · 05/09/2023 11:30

It may be morbid, it may be hysterical over-reaction, but I am still finding it hard to get Lucy Letby out of my head. As a nurse for 35 years I’m so appalled that she - and other nurses before her - could even dream of abusing her powerful and privileged position to murder tiny vulnerable newborns completely unable to protect themselves. I try to consider what her motives might have been, but of course can only come up with supposition because it’s so far from anything that normal people could do.

I’m so sorry for everyone involved, which right now includes parents of her former patients wondering if she’d tried to harm them, and today’s parents of babies in neonatal units/ICUs up and down the nation, scared to go home and leave their precious babies in the care of potentially murderous nurses, and of course those neonatal nurses/doctors trying to do their best for babies under the suspicious watchful eyes of parents and colleagues.

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 11:46

ZadocPDederick · 05/09/2023 09:04

On that basis, the prosecution was acting distastefully by waiting to charge her till they thought they had enough evidence. They still are acting distastefully by failing to charge her with other deaths. The jury acted distastefully by finding her not guilty on some charges.

Tastefulness simply doesn't come into this.

I don't see how this is comparable. There was obviously not enough evidence in some of those cases. It will be harder for those families to get closure. Which shows even more that the jury were careful to follow the reasonable doubt test, as directed by the judge.

What is distasteful and also moronic is people now saying maybe this was a miscarriage of justice after such a long trial and so much compelling evidence. I've just seen someone saying they would leave their child with Lucy Letby. Madness.

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 11:47

I think she may end up charged with other crimes. It's awful to think that this is likely the tip of an iceberg.

itsgettingweird · 05/09/2023 12:19

OneSugar1 · 05/09/2023 11:04

Particularly when she started disputing formerly agreed evidence 😵‍💫

And admitting she couldn't remember what she'd said 🤦🏼‍♀️

WhiteFire · 05/09/2023 12:23

JanieEyre · 05/09/2023 11:27

Interesting. On the previous thread, one of her defenders was trying to suggest it couldn't have happened because she couldn't have guaranteed getting insulin into the right nutrition bag in the fridge, but that would presumably apply whoever killed her.

I think with the nutrition bags they could either be a standard "off the shelf" bag or a specifically tailored formulation. In this case it was the latter I think so it would have gone to that baby only.

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/09/2023 12:27

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 11:46

I don't see how this is comparable. There was obviously not enough evidence in some of those cases. It will be harder for those families to get closure. Which shows even more that the jury were careful to follow the reasonable doubt test, as directed by the judge.

What is distasteful and also moronic is people now saying maybe this was a miscarriage of justice after such a long trial and so much compelling evidence. I've just seen someone saying they would leave their child with Lucy Letby. Madness.

The attempts to stigmatise people for discussing weaknesses in the evidence are ridiculous. If the evidence is strong there is nothing to fear from an appeal and discussing it online is no more than a simple way to set people’s doubts at rest as it will easily be refuted.
Miscarriages of justice happen. They happen in all manner of cases, after any length of trial and often where the evidence looked rock solid. Any given case is unlikely to be one because our courts do normally manage to get it right first time, but whether this one will pan out that way is far too early to say.

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 12:43

You're looking at it in a completely twisted way. There is literally no reason to think that LL did not have a fair trial. So why are you even talking about an impending appeal?

If you think that there is scientific evidence that proves her innocence then it's awfully strange that these 'experts' were nowhere to be seen in her trial. Which was concerning crimes that were committed 7-8 years ago.

BathingBeauty · 05/09/2023 12:47

I forgot shit in the sink despite the fact it didn’t relate to any of the deaths/collapses. It was really clutching at straws.

I can see why it took so long to discover what she’s doing, it’s just so unbelievable that someone would do that. Beverly A had so many red flags, but I can’t see LL did, she seemed popular and liked.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/09/2023 12:49

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 12:43

You're looking at it in a completely twisted way. There is literally no reason to think that LL did not have a fair trial. So why are you even talking about an impending appeal?

If you think that there is scientific evidence that proves her innocence then it's awfully strange that these 'experts' were nowhere to be seen in her trial. Which was concerning crimes that were committed 7-8 years ago.

The fact that increasing numbers of statisticians, lawyers and health professionals are concerned about the safety of the conviction is enough reason for me to wonder. They know more than I do.
Possibly they are all talking out of their arses but we’ll see.

SerafinasGoose · 05/09/2023 12:52

I was (thankfully) abroad when the verdicts were returned. Other than news alerts bubbling up on my phone, I managed to avoid reading the more sensationalist accounts and have said little on any Letby thread.

I listened to some of the later podcasts out of curiosity about the minutae of the case for her defence, rather than the published snippets, and to hear what she had to say in the witness stand. I have to wonder how hard her counsel tried to persuade her that testifying in her own defence was a really bad idea. And surely they must have known that calling only one other witness - a plumber - said a great deal by omission. They would have been better not presenting a case at all: the onus was not on them to prove her innocence, but on the prosecution to prove her guilt.

Her answers on the stand were nothing short of extraordinary. They basically amounted to 'wasn't me, guv' and 'they're all out to get me!' (with what motive, she couldn't say). But it was the between the lines stuff that intruiged me. Everyone else was lying but her. No one else seemed to have any difficulty in recalling specific events, whereas her stock reply was 'I don't recall that'. She doesn't even profess to recall some of the babies she's convinced of killing. But it was the 'commando' thing that was most revealing. Insisting she was ignorant of that term was clearly a blatant and unnecessary lie which incriminated her further. A criminal lawyer and ex PC I know once talked to me about this - said sometimes a suspect can't stop talking in order to prove they're 'clever' and can pull the wool over everyone's eyes (Letby apparently cooperated with the police interviews throughout). When in the witness box they often incriminate themselves by continuing to lie when the truth would have done them no harm. From what I heard, Letby did this too.

As a serial killer she's an anomaly, that's for sure. To me, aside from the crimes themselves the breathtaking part about all of it were her calculated, premediated attempts to cover her tracks. She later behaved precisely as an innocent person would have behaved, by challenging the 7 consultants in a grievance and claiming she was being bullied (IME, crying 'bullied!' does sometimes seem to put people automatically in the right). And that worked. The best form of offence was attack, and they were forced to apologise.

Worst of all was the way in which she falsified records to try to incriminate her colleagues. I felt particularly for the nurse Mary Griffith(?), who was present at the collapse of one of the twins, L or M. Their parents claimed she was crying and repeating over and over again: 'I didn't do anything'. They knew something was wrong and were already concerned about the high instances of deaths in that unit - she must have been terrified that blame would be apportioned to her. There are so many secondary victims of this woman.

Aside from the parents, my heart went out particularly to the consultant paediatrician, John Gibbs, whose interview had me in tears. He was thorough, meticulous, competent, but is questioning himself over and over: 'could I have done more to stop it?' His bullying hospital executives were the barrier to doing this, but he appears to accept some of the blame and feels the parents are justified in apportioning it to him. I felt so awful for the poor guy, having to live with that on his conscience. One person alone was responsible: the person who decided to abuse, torture and murder vulnerable babies.

As for her 'innocence' being proved at a later stage: this is only possible if the judge or counsel are found not to have done their jobs properly, or if further evidence comes to light. There would have to be a glut of that in order even to marginally refute any of the masses of information presented to that court. The odds of that are so vanishingly unlikely as to be nigh-on impossible.

She is never coming out of prison. Good.

BIossomtoes · 05/09/2023 12:58

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/09/2023 12:49

The fact that increasing numbers of statisticians, lawyers and health professionals are concerned about the safety of the conviction is enough reason for me to wonder. They know more than I do.
Possibly they are all talking out of their arses but we’ll see.

Are you talking about Richard Gibb and his mates? They’re nutters.

ZadocPDederick · 05/09/2023 12:59

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 11:46

I don't see how this is comparable. There was obviously not enough evidence in some of those cases. It will be harder for those families to get closure. Which shows even more that the jury were careful to follow the reasonable doubt test, as directed by the judge.

What is distasteful and also moronic is people now saying maybe this was a miscarriage of justice after such a long trial and so much compelling evidence. I've just seen someone saying they would leave their child with Lucy Letby. Madness.

It is directly comparable. You are saying it is distasteful to talk in terms of the verdicts being overturned, which would only happen if the verdict was found to be unsafe in some way - possibly because it is wholly inconsistent with the evidence, new evidence turned up, there was a misdirection from the judge or whatever. But that is essentially analysing the evidence and/or finding that the jury could not safely convict on that basis. It's the same process as the jury was applying when it decided that some cases weren't proven, and it's the same process that the prosecution applied when it decided which charges to proceed with.

When you talk about points being "moronic" you are moving the goalposts. This was in response to a post objecting to psychiatrists speculating about LL's mental health because, amongst other matters, "If we consider the possibility (and this is just hypothesis) she ends up being found innocent in the future if new evidence is presented. How then do all these opinions from psychologists and psychiatrists then look?". The poster emphasised that it was just a hypothesis. It was then suggested that it was distasteful even to suggest that LL might be found not guilty in the future - yet the jury found her not guilty of at least some of the charges and the prosecution felt there was inadequate evidence on others.

I fully support the jury's findings and have not seen anything remotely sensible from any LL defender suggesting they are wrong. But that does not mean that it is forbidden to postulate the possibility that some might in the future be found to be wrong. It also doesn't mean she didn't have a fair trial, it means that someone might be found to have made a mistake or new evidence might turn up.

SerafinasGoose · 05/09/2023 13:01

BathingBeauty · 05/09/2023 12:47

I forgot shit in the sink despite the fact it didn’t relate to any of the deaths/collapses. It was really clutching at straws.

I can see why it took so long to discover what she’s doing, it’s just so unbelievable that someone would do that. Beverly A had so many red flags, but I can’t see LL did, she seemed popular and liked.

She deflected too, which I can't see will have done anything to strengthen her defence. There was a lot of sideways commentary about infections: infections were in none of those cases the cause of the collapses or deaths of those babies.

Their sole defence witness offered nothing more than a variation on the same theme. Hygiene levels on the unit were not the cause.

The prosection's summing up, in which they did the work of helping the jury connect the dots and identify patterns between all these discrete pieces of evidence, was a work of genius IMO. It offered a helpful starting point for their deliberations: particularly as each case had to be considered separately. That was a brilliant piece of lawyering.

The defence case - that proceedings had begun 'with a presumption of guilt' - was the absolute best they had to work with. You can't make an eloquent case that simply isn't there.

Janieforever · 05/09/2023 13:14

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/09/2023 12:49

The fact that increasing numbers of statisticians, lawyers and health professionals are concerned about the safety of the conviction is enough reason for me to wonder. They know more than I do.
Possibly they are all talking out of their arses but we’ll see.

Really? I think you need to back that up.

amd when you do I’d remove gibbs. Who is facing arrest if he ever enters the uk and the ridiculous science on trial website. Both have been thoroughly debunked. You would lose any little remaining credibility .

however as you’ve stated increasing numbers, then let’s see them.

AcesBaseballbat · 05/09/2023 14:06

The attempts to stigmatise people for discussing weaknesses in the evidence are ridiculous. If the evidence is strong there is nothing to fear from an appeal and discussing it online is no more than a simple way to set people’s doubts at rest as it will easily be refuted.

I'm sorry but this comment feels either naïve or disingenuous.

It's not a question of "people discussing weaknesses in the evidence" (which doesn't seem to exist), it's a well-orchestrated conspiracy theory led by a man who threatened to shoot up the courtroom and can't legally enter the UK, and a woman with a history of abuse and violence who was found in court to be mentally incompetant, going out of their way to promote a conspiracy theory which is identical to very dangerous far right conspiracy theories such as the Sandy Hook Truther Movement, who are repeatedly spamming every forum and site they can find, using dozens of sock puppet accounts and harassing and trolling people to the point they were IP banned from Reddit, WebSleuths, and other forums.

We should be "stigmatising" trolls like Richard Gill and Sarrita Adams who are sockpuppeting, harassing and abusing people, threatening violence, calling the parents liars, etc. as part of an agenda to push a far right conspiracy theory.

The fact that increasing numbers of statisticians, lawyers and health professionals are concerned about the safety of the conviction is enough reason for me to wonder. They know more than I do.

Who are these people? Can you cite them? I've not seen anyone say they're concerned about the safety of the conviction, apart from the two individuals I mentioned above.

AcesBaseballbat · 05/09/2023 14:12

Sarrita Adams is also trying to convince people to donate money to her personally (while also lying that she has a PhD, which she doesn't), with some nebulous claim that she'll use the money, somehow, to try to lobby for an appeal.

Not sure how a woman living in California who isn't even allowed to testify in her own court hearings as she was found by a court to be so severely mentally ill that she's not mentally competent, is going to launch an appeal in a foreign country over a case she has no connection to, in defence of a woman she's never met.

It's always a grift with these people.

OneSugar1 · 05/09/2023 14:24

Didn’t Richard Gill submit his ‘findings’ to Letby’s defence team during the trial and they backed away slowly without making any sudden movements politely ignored him?

itsgettingweird · 05/09/2023 16:13

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 12:43

You're looking at it in a completely twisted way. There is literally no reason to think that LL did not have a fair trial. So why are you even talking about an impending appeal?

If you think that there is scientific evidence that proves her innocence then it's awfully strange that these 'experts' were nowhere to be seen in her trial. Which was concerning crimes that were committed 7-8 years ago.

Am I right in thinking an appeal needs more evidence?

Or you are just having the same trial again?

itsgettingweird · 05/09/2023 16:15

She doesn't even profess to recall some of the babies she's convinced of killing. But it was the 'commando' thing that was most revealing. Insisting she was ignorant of that term was clearly a blatant and unnecessary lie which incriminated her further.

Completely agree. I said hot bread the lying about such innocuous things - like normal jokey texts 20 ups send - was the giveaway for me

itsgettingweird · 05/09/2023 16:18

The one thing I am (well 2 things I'm sure of) about LL is a) she's guilty and b) everything she says and does is calculated and an act.

LizzieSiddal · 05/09/2023 16:27

*She doesn't even profess to recall some of the babies she's convinced of killing. But it was the 'commando' thing that was most revealing. Insisting she was ignorant of that term was clearly a blatant and unnecessary lie which incriminated her further.

Agree, the other totally unnecessary lie was when asked about what happens to your eyes when you go from a very well lit room to a dark one. She said she didn’t know! A 5 year old could answer that.
She just proved over and over that she tells lies so easily you really can’t believe anything she says.

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 18:59

This video addresses the conspiracy theories re: innocence by someone who attended the court hearings. His voice cadence is quite annoying but his points are probably accurate as he's reporting what LL herself said.

Tambatamba · 05/09/2023 19:23

It is directly comparable. You are saying it is distasteful to talk in terms of the verdicts being overturned, which would only happen if the verdict was found to be unsafe in some way - possibly because it is wholly inconsistent with the evidence, new evidence turned up, there was a misdirection from the judge or whatever. But that is essentially analysing the evidence and/or finding that the jury could not safely convict on that basis. It's the same process as the jury was applying when it decided that some cases weren't proven, and it's the same process that the prosecution applied when it decided which charges to proceed with.

When you talk about points being "moronic" you are moving the goalposts. This was in response to a post objecting to psychiatrists speculating about LL's mental health because, amongst other matters, "If we consider the possibility (and this is just hypothesis) she ends up being found innocent in the future if new evidence is presented. How then do all these opinions from psychologists and psychiatrists then look?". The poster emphasised that it was just a hypothesis. It was then suggested that it was distasteful even to suggest that LL might be found not guilty in the future - yet the jury found her not guilty of at least some of the charges and the prosecution felt there was inadequate evidence on others.

I fully support the jury's findings and have not seen anything remotely sensible from any LL defender suggesting they are wrong. But that does not mean that it is forbidden to postulate the possibility that some might in the future be found to be wrong. It also doesn't mean she didn't have a fair trial, it means that someone might be found to have made a mistake or new evidence might turn up.

Well you don't sound like someone who fully supports the jury's findings.

Do you have the same opinion about Rex Heuermann? Or Richard Allen? Do they deserve to have Facebook groups dedicated to the possibility that they have been wrongly accused?

SeamsLegit · 05/09/2023 19:35

Stop talking about it!

How about stop contributing to threads you're not interested in, rather than telling other people what to do?!