Page 5 | Lucy Letby - new thread (part 2)

smashburger · 27/08/2023 14:33

I am listening to the podcast again. I'm finding it much easier to follow the case this time knowing the verdict, theory's and panorama since the trial ended

Fallingthroughclouds · 27/08/2023 14:33

SquirrelFeeder · 26/08/2023 23:25

I saw a reallllllly interesting account from someone who was in court during her cross examination. I'll see if I can find a link. He basically said that whilst she kept this softly spoken, very clinical demeanour throughout, there was ONE brief moment when she snapped at the Barrister cross examining her.
The Barrister mentioned one of the victims' mother's name (wasn't said on this person's video obviously). So he said:
"Victim X's mother has quite an unusual name, doesn't she?
Letby: "Er, yeah..."
Barrister: "Yeah quite long & confusing...Wouldn't you say?"
Letby: "Yes........."
Barrister: "Quite uncommon and different, isn't it?"
Then Letby snapped "YES!!!!!!!" and apparently dropped character and glared at the barrister with what this guy described as a look of evil.

I'm not surprised, he asked the same question again and again, probably to provoke her and she was provoked. Sounds like this is just the usual sensationalisation of people wanting to get in the press.

paintityellow · 27/08/2023 14:38

Cheeseandlobster · 27/08/2023 14:30

Exactly. The pp throwing accusations about this being strange is being very unfair and hasn't thought it through very well

Show quote history

I agree. I am sure her father was in complete shock when the police came and arrested her. People often go into automatic pilot at a time like that. The morning I heard my mother's cancer was terminal, I went up to the shops and bought a newspaper. I remember wondering at the time why I was doing that, but I still did it. I also remember years ago getting some very bad news and insisting I had to go to the shop to get milk. I found the milk later on the back seat of my car.
Her father's behaviour was perfectly normal.

ThelmaBorden · 27/08/2023 14:47

LaffTaff · 27/08/2023 13:14

Some of her parents' reactions have been indicative, and I mean that as a reflection on Lucy Letby (and her parents' knowledge of her as a person) NOT them. Allegedly (according to newspaper reports) her Mum said "I did it, take me instead" when Letby was arrested.
Again, according to reports, her Dad tidied her room and made her bed after she was arrested (on suspicion of murder!).
And it's utterly out of the ordinary for a parent to accompany an adult child (an adult home owner, with the intelligence to be a degree educated, registered clinician) to work disciplinary meetings.
It's all incredibly atypical of an 'everyday' adult child/parent relationship.

So perhaps they were fiercely protective because they knew her personally, and knew she wasn't your 'typical' everyday child/adult? I'm in no way suggesting her parents were aware of what she was capable of, incidentally - I'd stress that very strongly! However it seems very unlikely that someone capable of such horror wouldn't have displayed at least SOME out of the ordinary/concerning personality traits whilst growing up.

LL was clearly infantalised by her parents, could not or would not function
normally as an adult, yet holidayed on Ibiza, so many anomalies.

I’m wondering, speculating, how the long trial would have panned out without the continued daily presence of the parents, an inhibiting factor, possibly intimidating,
the truth subsumed by LL in order to protect them, their expectations of her maybe.

No regular father takes it upon himself to attend a works meeting then demands
a letter of apology from line managers/doctors? totally high handed, bullying, embarrassing behaviour.
No regular functioning adult, only child or not would countenance this behaviour.

LL was never told no

Seeing tiny babies in cribs, wired up, asleep, helpless, vulnerable, is so heart wrenching, many of us would feel devotion, as a nurse wouldn’t we? yet these babies came to harm by their trusted caregiver.

The parents had a firm grip which they are not about to relinquish.

However there are more and better ways to make a life beyond the nest than destroying newborns.

Upset12345 · 27/08/2023 14:51

HappiDaze · 27/08/2023 00:01

It is strange though how overly involved her parents were in her work life.

Particularly attending her disciplinary meeting especially at her age.

I find that really really odd and unusual

I don't find it that unusual.

Lucy Letby is guilty as hell, don't get me wrong.

However, I was bullied at work and I had to go alone into a meeting with my bully and managers. I was terrified and would have loved to have a parent there.

Springduckling · 27/08/2023 14:53

Rainbows89 · 27/08/2023 13:04

There’s a really good book called ‘Why Love Matters’ by Sue Gerhardt. I read it many years ago and loved it. In one part she talks about the background of the boys that murdered Jamie Bulger. She talks about how their home lives were filled with abuse and neglect. It helps to explain why they were able to do what they did.

I’m a psychotherapist so I spend a lot of time working out why people behave the way that they do so I have been trying to figure out why Lucy Letby would have done this.

And I just can’t. The thing is that so many people have complicated and difficult relationships with their parents. But Lucy Letby went onto to be the worst baby serial killer in the history of the UK.

And that’s the disconnect for me. So many people struggle with so many things and mostly do not murder tiny, defenceless babies.

There must be things that we don’t know.

I agree with this. The other women with full life sentences, for example, had difficult backgrounds, and / or addiction issues, had displayed previous criminal behaviour.

Her parents are well within the normal range of parenting. Many parents worry about their adult children moving away , and those adult children find that irritating.

Cailleachian · 27/08/2023 15:13

I don't understand how people cant see that this verdict is deeply unsafe.
There is nothing at all that indicates that she harmed those babies in any way.

Its terrifying that she was convicted on no actual evidence beyond being there, cherrypicking 7 out of 31 deaths and bad science applied retrospectively. This case should send shivers down the spine of any nurse working in an understaffed hospital with poor hygiene (so pretty much all of them!)

This is a scandal - not just of the NHS, but also of the police who appeared to outsource their forensic work to a known grifter (no crime, no pay) with no forensic or neonatal experience and indeed the entire judicial system.

Unlikedandconfused · 27/08/2023 15:18

Cailleachian · 27/08/2023 15:13

I don't understand how people cant see that this verdict is deeply unsafe.
There is nothing at all that indicates that she harmed those babies in any way.

Its terrifying that she was convicted on no actual evidence beyond being there, cherrypicking 7 out of 31 deaths and bad science applied retrospectively. This case should send shivers down the spine of any nurse working in an understaffed hospital with poor hygiene (so pretty much all of them!)

This is a scandal - not just of the NHS, but also of the police who appeared to outsource their forensic work to a known grifter (no crime, no pay) with no forensic or neonatal experience and indeed the entire judicial system.

The one thing that worried me was how they said some babies had been assaulted by her but they had no marks or bruises visible that it was liver damage ? How on Earth can a tiny premature baby be assaulted that badly and not have a mark on them ? I’m not saying she didn’t do it I’m just completely confused how that’s possible ?

LaffTaff · 27/08/2023 15:19

Cheeseandlobster · 27/08/2023 14:30

Exactly. The pp throwing accusations about this being strange is being very unfair and hasn't thought it through very well

Show quote history

It was I who referenced this, and I didn't (even remotely!) 'accuse' her Father of anything! I referenced it as part of a pattern of responsive behaviour - ironic that you've completely missed pretty much ALL the context and nuance in my post, whilst chastising about not thinking through very well 🤦‍♀️

omgsally · 27/08/2023 15:19

LaffTaff · 27/08/2023 13:46

Letby's mugshot is striking in terms of the 'mask' analogy. That mugshot, whereupon her face is completely relaxed/emotionless with the full on 'psycho dead eye', is the real Letby. The smiley pics we see of her prior are the mask. They genuinely look like two different people.

Show quote history

This is such a load of nonsense. People who aren't smiling or posing typically don't look vibrant/happy/empathetic. She looks like any normal woman in the street. Unless you're especially photogenic or gorgeous, most people don't look great. If you took a photo of me right now, I'd look a right horror.

itsgettingweird · 27/08/2023 15:20

TakeBackTheCity · 27/08/2023 05:30

With regards to her taking handover notes home, is this normal? Is there any reason a nurse needs to have these outside the hospital?

No.

And her response to this was always that it was a mistake, she had palates that were for babysits not related to any of the accused cases, it's normal behaviour for her to collect paper, she didn't have a shredder (that was a lie) and she shredded her bank statements and bills etc because once read or paid she no longer needed them.

The whole interesting thing was how calm and measured her responses were even when contradictory and out and out lies. I would imagine that's how she pulled the wool over so many peoples eyes for so long.

itsgettingweird · 27/08/2023 15:22

Lifeasweknowit25 · 27/08/2023 05:59

I think we will never understand fully
my best guess is -
that she has always had a tendency for attention - at home she never had to fight for it. She grew up with what seem like very over bearing parents albeit good loving parents who possibly over indulged her. She probably got on ok at school but was never over popular but did have friends. She moved away from home - which parents did not like. She all of a sudden didn’t have that attention from people she once had. A baby could have possibly died who she was treating naturally and she got attention / adrenaline / a kick from the aftermath and then it spiralled.

That's really interesting.

Someone I am no longer friends with totally over indulged her Dds. They could do something in front of witnesses and she'd still deny they were involved. They however really struggled with school - especially the move to secondary. Once they were just 1 of 1500 pupils and expect eyed to be just 1 of those 1500 it was really hard for them. I don't think they knew who they were or how to be someone likeable through normal actions because they never learnt to be just be - iyswim?

itsgettingweird · 27/08/2023 15:27

Araminta34 · 27/08/2023 09:56

Her parents clearly have an unhealthy attachment to her,
aren’t they currently selling their house to move closer to the prison ?

How on earth can parents have 'an unhealthy attachment' to their child?

Of course parents can have an unhealthy attachment to their children.

We already know of attachment disorder which can be seen in children who didn't have a good start in life - very common in children who have been adopted. We accept there is dna age caused by lack of early attachment. It can also be caused by over attachment and never allowing a child to figure things out for themselves and create an independent being from their parents.

Goldencup · 27/08/2023 15:34

TakeBackTheCity · 27/08/2023 06:56

Thanks for answering.

So would you say it was unusual she had so many?

Show quote history

Like most other HCPs I have accidentally found a handover sheet in a cross body bag or a pair or trousers having gone through the washing machine , but I understand she kept them in a box, even through a house move. I would say that is definitely unusual.

LaffTaff · 27/08/2023 15:38

omgsally · 27/08/2023 15:19

This is such a load of nonsense. People who aren't smiling or posing typically don't look vibrant/happy/empathetic. She looks like any normal woman in the street. Unless you're especially photogenic or gorgeous, most people don't look great. If you took a photo of me right now, I'd look a right horror.

Show quote history

What a bizarre thing to take exception to... I think she looks like the psycho she is in her mugshot, you don't (thanks for clearing that up 🙄).

Fallingthroughclouds · 27/08/2023 15:42

MajesticWhine · 27/08/2023 00:12

I agree @HappiDaze - I posted about this on another thread but I think the odd and intense relationship with her parents was probably a part of her motive. I think she failed to psychologically separate from them.

It's a big jump from psychologically not separating from your parents to murdering babies though.

Mustardseed86 · 27/08/2023 15:44

Cailleachian · 27/08/2023 15:13

I don't understand how people cant see that this verdict is deeply unsafe.
There is nothing at all that indicates that she harmed those babies in any way.

Its terrifying that she was convicted on no actual evidence beyond being there, cherrypicking 7 out of 31 deaths and bad science applied retrospectively. This case should send shivers down the spine of any nurse working in an understaffed hospital with poor hygiene (so pretty much all of them!)

This is a scandal - not just of the NHS, but also of the police who appeared to outsource their forensic work to a known grifter (no crime, no pay) with no forensic or neonatal experience and indeed the entire judicial system.

Sorry, what are the 31 deaths you're referring to? And who is this 'no crime, no pay' grifter?

itsgettingweird · 27/08/2023 15:54

One of the things that struck me during her questioning is how she would mention a lot how others weren't qualified to do what they'd been left to do, it was their first death etc and so she needed to step in.

It was never clear if the other staff wanted her to or if she decided they needed her to.

It's just we talk about her saying her parents were overbearing. But she shows signs of being overbearing herself from what we've seen.

I absolutely agree with whoever above (the psychoanalyst) said that the one thing we probably will never know is the why.

I really feel for the bereaved parents because I always think this is the biggest question someone has over death.

Boshi · 27/08/2023 16:03

anonymousamy · 26/08/2023 22:32

A thread for anyone who was on the last one and wanted to continue the discussion.

What I cannot wrap my head around is Letby’s seemingly completely normal upbringing. Usually serial killers have displayed some kind of markers by the time they start killing, but AFAIK she literally had none. 100% believe she is guilty BTW - just cannot begin to understand it.

Slippery slope. Only takes one wrong thought and one instance of not countering it to allow that thought to develop into an addiction to the wrong doing, or an idea that you are infallible and will never be caught.

She obviously knew how deeply repugnant her desire to murder or her sadistic tendencies were, therefore was probably careful to never show any signs of it to loved ones/colleagues. Indeed, she showed the opposite with her letters and notes to bereaved parents.

OhComeOnFFS · 27/08/2023 16:07

One of the things that struck me during her questioning is how she would mention a lot how others weren't qualified to do what they'd been left to do, it was their first death etc and so she needed to step in.

This was said when she was put into a room with less seriously ill babies - she was only interested in working with the babies who were the most ill and so she'd slag off anyone who was given that room when she had the 'lesser' room, questioning their grade, training, experience etc.

Of course she would have struggled to get away with murdering a baby who hadn't much wrong with them.

Elvera2 · 27/08/2023 16:09

I actually don't think that people are wrong for having an opinion about the parents. One way to make a child into a narcissist is by raising them to think they're special but specifically that they are more special than anyone else. Lucy Letby was raised with this constant narrative about her difficult birth. Well loads of us had difficult births - it didn't become a central narrative in our personas.

Normal parents don't go to employment meetings with their grown up child. This isn't loving - it's interfering and it's breaching boundaries.

Reddog1 · 27/08/2023 16:09

I can understand why her parents want to move to be nearer her. Her dad is already elderly. Long drives will take their toll. I don’t think that their move is indicative of anything other than a practical outlook and a wish to visit their child as often as they possibly can.

And most parents would miss a child who moved to NZ.

I feel sorry for them.

OhComeOnFFS · 27/08/2023 16:11

How on Earth can a tiny premature baby be assaulted that badly and not have a mark on them ? I’m not saying she didn’t do it I’m just completely confused how that’s possible ?

The babies did have rashes which the doctors couldn't explain.

Blood tests showed that some died from insulin poisoning - maybe there's no outwardly physical sign?

If you listen to the podcast, particularly the prosecution and defence parts, then it's very clear that they were killed.

ohsuzannah · 27/08/2023 16:20

Octosaurus · 27/08/2023 04:19

She wanted attention from a married male doctor who she had a big crush on. They flirted texted and met up a few times to a dodgy extent. I think he enjoyed the attention. & When he gave evidence in court, she left or tried to leave her seat because she said she felt unwell but the prosecuting barrister suggested it was because she didn't like seeing her boyfriend give evidence against her.
She knew that the way to bond with men was to be in crisis situations together. She created the crisis of the babies and requested him to help out. Then they would exchange compliments and bond over it.
She probably saw the babies as victimless crimes because there's no way a baby can call the police on her. These days as well people are calling for later and later abortion and diminishing the value of baby life even right up to term - perhaps this is how she rationalised it

This is exactly what I think.

FFF3 · 27/08/2023 16:20

How on Earth can a tiny premature baby be assaulted that badly and not have a mark on them ? I’m not saying she didn’t do it I’m just completely confused how that’s possible ?

You do realise they’re not referring to physical assault?! Any interference, including medical interference, would be referred to as assault on a person. Pushing air into a tiny baby’s stomach to the extent their diaphragm split is assault. Administering medication that causes organ damage is assault.