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Ukraine Invasion: Part 44

981 replies

MagicFox · 20/08/2023 12:43

44th thread, all the usual thanks and appreciation

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341
Hillsmakeyoustrong · 27/08/2023 15:13

Yes I've got desert boots and tourniquets leaving on Monday as well!

MissConducUS · 27/08/2023 16:40

Drat. I've missed the vatnik again. Hopefully, he'll be demoted from MN to 4chan.

TheABC · 27/08/2023 16:59

<makes note to donate to Ukraine.>

I found this thread on Twitter which does a good job of explaining why Robotyn was so important for both sides: Russia had laid down a very thorough defence system and to reach the village, Ukraine had to overcome it.

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1695563964158025974?t=zABlGvuAtAmf_9FXttFQUg&s=19

There's also a good piece on Substack from Tim Mak (The Counter Offensive) about Russian mines and the work required to demine Ukraine. The numbers are staggering: one field contained 750 weapons. Russia truly wants to destroy Ukraine; not just through military occupation, but economically and demographically by making the land impossible to use. It's truly evil stuff.

https://open.substack.com/pub/counteroffensive/p/the-russian-mines-slowing-ukraines?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=615mx

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1695563964158025974?s=19&t=zABlGvuAtAmf_9FXttFQUg

MissConducUS · 27/08/2023 17:28

I found this thread on Twitter which does a good job of explaining why Robotyn was so important for both sides: Russia had laid down a very thorough defence system and to reach the village, Ukraine had to overcome it.

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1695563964158025974?t=zABlGvuAtAmf_9FXttFQUg&s=19

That was insightful, and he makes a good point about armored vehicle losses. During WWII a tank had an average survival time of about two weeks in combat. And the Bradleys are doing their job by keeping their crew and passengers safe, even when taking direct hits. We have lots of Brads in Europe and the last few aid packages have included more than enough to make up for combat losses.

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1695563964158025974?s=19&t=zABlGvuAtAmf_9FXttFQUg

MMBaranova · 27/08/2023 18:52

12 minutes of Lukashenko spouting about Prigozhin, assassination attempts, Putin, Utkin, Wagner and of course himself.

Warnings. Pro-Russian feed, annoying translator, 12 minutes of your life you will never get back. Yet, he can just stand there and go on and on.

Lukashenko on the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin | Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, PMC Wagner

Did Putin kill the head of PMC Wagner Yevgeny Prigozhin?!President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko on the death of the head of PMC Wagner Yevgeny Prigozhin.Y...

https://youtu.be/rs8ktu0RVrA?si=yfNkSHhxzqVxsox8

MMBaranova · 27/08/2023 19:00

In the final three minutes or so, when he is addressing Wagner fighters still being based in Belarus, it is almost as if a generative chat program had been told to just fill for Lukashenko on Wagner, wolves and whatever.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 27/08/2023 19:56

750 weapons in one field?! Beggars belief. Do you have to have a lot of highly skilled people to lay so many mines? Can you easily procure the materials to do it and can it be done relatively quickly? It would seem to the untrained eye, that Russia is good at defence. Which is a bit of a surprise when you're used to thinking they are brutish, seriously incompetent and too fond of a drink.

DancesWithDucks · 27/08/2023 20:17

One of their mine spreading tools is some adapted artillery that literally sprays them into the air and around.

Systems developed by the Russians allow the delivery of scatterable mines from jet aircraft, helicopters, multiple rocket launchers, trucks and ground vehicles, or by dismounted soldiers in the forward parapet of fighting positions. (APAN community)

Ukraine is the most heavily mined country in the world.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 27/08/2023 20:25

Thanks @DancesWithDucks so quick and easy then.

MissConducUS · 27/08/2023 21:04

Most Russian mines are laid by hand. They either cover them with a bit of dirt or lay them down in the grass. All that matters is that they are hard to see until you are right on top of them.

The ones scattered by air are usually the easiest to find and clear.

MissConducUS · 27/08/2023 22:36

Ukraine has scatterable mines, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Scatterable_Mines

The RAAMS (remote anti-armor mine system) artillery shells were decisive in the Russian defeat at Vuldehar. It was one of the worst routs of the war for the Russians.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-battle-vuhledar/32276547.html

Family of Scatterable Mines - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Scatterable_Mines

DdraigGoch · 27/08/2023 23:08

Russia truly wants to destroy Ukraine; not just through military occupation, but economically and demographically by making the land impossible to use. It's truly evil stuff.

Be in no doubt. Everything we have seen in the last eighteen months or so amounts to genocide.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 27/08/2023 23:10

Thanks @MissConducUS I find it astounding that most mines are laid by hand. 750 in one field and then extrapolate that across the whole frontline...no wonder it is the most heavily mined country in the world.

blueshoes · 27/08/2023 23:29

Re-posted from the previous thread. This is Ukraine's low cost innovative answer to de-mining. Not sure if they will work on the shallowly buried mines but if the mines are close enough to the surface and it is hot enough during the day, I imagine the temperature difference is enough. But the difficulty is Ukraine won't know if it works or not until they go in. 😬

Ukrainian sappers have begun using a new demining tactic: they wait for enemy mines to warm up in the heat, — CNN
When it gets dark, and the air cools down, sappers launch drones with thermal imagers, on the screens of which mines heated by the sun become visible and seem to "glow" during the day.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-15-23/h_174973601d0100674d5e8066a20a6ae8

CNN - August 15, 2023 - Russia-Ukraine news

Ukrainian team uses thermal cameras in hunt for Russian threat

Faced with thousands of Russian landmines in a grueling counteroffensive, Ukrainian armed forces are using the experimental technique of thermal imagery to locate the threat that has claimed many lives.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-15-23/h_174973601d0100674d5e8066a20a6ae8

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2023 00:36

Snippets of an article linked below...

Both regular Russian armed forces—primarily naval and air—as well as Wagner troops have been present in Syria since Moscow first sent troops there in 2015. Wagner forces were also deployed to Libya in 2018 and to several other African countries, including the Central African Republic, Mali, Sudan, and Burkina Faso, in the years since then.
^^
Forcefully asserting Russian MOD control over Wagner forces operating in Syria and the rest of the Middle East might prove difficult if the latter decide to resist. Furthermore, asserting such control in Libya and elsewhere in Africa, where the Wagner presence is much greater than any regular Russian military presence, might be impossible.
^^
Wagner forces in these areas have many incentives to be uncooperative. Those in the Middle East and Africa might be especially resistant in order to protect the income they generate from “protecting” governments and warlords. Wagner mercenaries in both the Middle East and Africa also fear redeployment to Ukraine, where, in May, Prigozhin claimed that twenty thousand Wagner fighters died in the 2023 battle over Bakhmut alone.

And

Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad might be sympathetic to any effort by Russian President Putin to assert control over the Wagner forces stationed in his country. Centralized dictatorial control is, after all, a principle he seeks to apply in his own country. Assad, though, will not want to see a conflict between regular Russian armed forces and Wagner forces, as this could encourage Assad’s many opponents to revive their opposition to his regime. Perhaps he will try to imitate Belarusian leader Aleksandr Lukashenko by attempting to mediate between rival Russian forces.

By contrast, General Khalifa Haftar in Libya and Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo—also known as Hemedti—in Sudan are much more reliant on support from Wagner. In April, CNN revealed that Wagner has been arming Hemedti’s Rapid Support Forces in its war against Sudan’s military leader, General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, with whom Moscow maintains good relations, through Haftar-controlled territory in neighboring Libya. Anything that weakens or diminishes Wagner’s ability to support Haftar and Hemedti would be most unwelcome, especially since they have no assurance that the Russian MOD will pick up where Wagner forces left off. Of course, since the Wagner Group may not be dependent on financing from Moscow in many places—due to local sources of income, such as some degree of control over natural resources—Wagner-protected governments or opposition leaders controlling parts of countries may be able to continue collaborating with local Wagner bosses without involving a Moscow that is distracted by issues closer to home

And

In addition, Wagner’s operations in Libya—chiefly its military support to the self-anointed Field Marshal of the Libyan National Army (LNA), Khalifa Haftar, who is connected to the eastern Libyan government—has given Wagner a “bridgehead” in Libya. This allows it to maintain links with the head of Sudan’s Rapid Support Forces under the command of Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo, more popularly known as Hemedti, who is embroiled in a civil war against the forces of Sudanese General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan.
Complicating Factors
It is far from clear that Wagner and the Russian government were always operating from the same playbook. For example, after Haftar failed to take the Libyan capital of Tripoli by force in 2019-2020, the Russian government began to hedge its bets on this Libyan strongman and started to reach out to the Tripoli government even though Wagner remained in Haftar’s corner (and in his employ). And in Sudan’s ongoing civil war, Wagner and the Russian government may be on different sides.

And

On June 30, a Wagner military base in Libya was hit by a drone strike, though no one was killed or injured in the attack. The government in Tripoli, which has long opposed the Haftar-Wagner alliance, denied that it was involved in the strike; but one possibility is that it undertook this attack to weaken the abovementioned ties. Another possibility is that Turkish forces in Libya may have launched the drone strike at the behest of the Russian government as a warning to Wagner against taking part in any rebellion against the Kremlin. However, until more information is revealed, it remains uncertain as to who actually launched the strike and for what purpose, since there are multiple conflicts within conflicts in Libya.

Why am I posting this?

Wellllll....

OSINTdefender AT sentdefender
The Libyan Government is currently in Crisis after the Former-Minister of Foreign Affairs, Najla Mangoush met for the 1st Time in History with her Counterpart from Israel, Eli Cohen during a Summit earlier today in Italy; since this has occurred Extremists in the Libyan Government have convinced Prime Minster, Abdul Hamid Dbeibeh to Fire the Foreign Minister and place her Under Investigation for “Crimes against the Libyan People.”

Then:
OSINTdefender AT sentdefender
Rioters are currently Storming the Libyan Parliamentary and Foreign Ministry Building in the Capital of Tripoli; Security Forces have reportedly Opened Fire.

Also

OSINTdefender AT sentdefender
The Russian Ministry of Defense has reportedly told the Syrian Government recently that they must notify the Wagner PMC Group that their Services are no longer required and that they must leave the Country by October 1st.

Sounds like things are happening rapidly which may have significant implications in Libya and Syria.

The Wagner rebellion is over—for now. But how will the events reverberate in the Middle East and North Africa?

The June 23-24 rebellion led by Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin—aimed, he claimed, at replacing the Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and Chief

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/wagner-group-russia-middle-east/

notimagain · 28/08/2023 09:26

@DrBlackbird

Re the mid-air and

Really tragic Hopefully doesn’t put allies off donating planes.

It shouldn't do...it's the short of unfortunate loss that happens in war.

For context, historically, even in wartime a significant number aircraft losses, as in double digit percentages of the total wartime loss have been down to plain old fashioned accidents. The Royal Navy lost two Sea Harriers in the Falklands campaign - they simply went off as a pair and never returned to the ship - the working assumption has always been they probably had a mid-air, possibly due bad weather.

I wouldn't assume the Ukraine accident was down to close formation flying (close spaced) either, there's another form of formation flying, tactical, where your spacing is usually be measured in hundreds of metres and there have been collisions whilst doing that, perhaps caused by the coordination of a formation turns goes wrong.

notimagain · 28/08/2023 09:50

^^. The Royal Navy lost two Sea Harriers in the Falklands campaign"

"....additional to those lost in combat"

  • looks like the edit function was short lived..
PerkingFaintly · 28/08/2023 10:02

Edit function is designed only to work for a short time after each post, to reduce the opportunity for misuse.

(I have to try this out now. Just because.Grin)

L1ttledrummergirl · 28/08/2023 10:31

Even the red arrows has had mishaps and losses through the years, and those pilots are amazing.
One slip, or loss of concentration and that's all it can take.

notimagain · 28/08/2023 11:13

Even the red arrows has had mishaps and losses through the years, and those pilots are amazing.

The penultimate military funeral I attended was for one of the above...

Anyhow at the danger of getting off thread but to provide context as to why the Ukrainian Air Force is training in formation flying, especially in a war zone, especially if it causes accidents, I'll offer the following.

Firstly forget the Red Arrows, they do some impressive work but the actual reason formation flying in it's various forms is done is to allow multiple aircraft to get airborne as single entity, then operate as a cooperative/co-ordinated unit and then recover and land as a single entity...

Back in the days of 70's/80's aircraft and weapons technology ( e.g. Mig-29 era) your bog standard average fighter pilot on an average day would fly tucked in close formation for the take-off and climb above any weather, then switch into a much wider battle (tactical) formation for the Top gun stuff, then possibly slide back into close formation for the recovery to base, especially if the weather was poor and an instrument let down/approach was needed

Modern tactics and modern weapons may have changed current usage, most especially in the ground attack world, but formation flying skills were and probably still are an absolutely fundamental tool in the fighter pilots box of tools of the trade.....hence it being taught, even now, despite any risks.

HTH

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2023 11:47

Talk over the last day or so has been about Ukraine making much more progress than they have in the months before around Robotyne.

Yesterday it was confirmed they have now reached the main Russian defensive line.

There's mixed comments about what this means and how well defended the line in this area actually is. There is some suggestions that the Russians have been kept so busy that they haven't managed to complete the defensive line in some areas meaning there are significant weak points.

The other thing is there are numerous reports coming out today that Ukraine are approaching Novoprokopivka (south of Robotyne) and Verbove (more East and to the South of Robotyne) as well as significant activity towards Kopani (to the West) - which would suggest they are less pinned down than previously and there's talk of the Russian flanks being more exposed. Russian channels were talking of a 'breakthrough' towards Verbove yesterday - whether that's true, I'm slightly skeptical about - I believe Verbove itself is the other side of the defensive side, but that's what the noise is saying.

Reflecting on Defmon3 was saying about funnelling this all does tie together. You'd expect the Ukrainians to try to clear the area between the defensive lines and broaden the front before attempting an assault.

It depends on how well manned and prepared that defensive line is and how much more resources Russia now relocates to the area. It's promising but it's not the momentus point that everyone is hoping for just yet.

notimagain · 28/08/2023 12:15

On the subject of progress there have been some interesting pieces in parts of the UK MSM on how a certain Senior Royal Naval Officer has somehow become besties with some in Ukraine military and political circles.

Interesting POV on that and the behaviour of others in this blog:

https://phillipspobrien.substack.com/p/weekend-update-43?utm_medium=email&isFreemail=true

Weekend Update #43

The Shameful Credit Grab for Ukrainian Success; The Good News: Signs of Success; Comparing Militaries

https://phillipspobrien.substack.com/p/weekend-update-43?isFreemail=true

blueshoes · 28/08/2023 12:49

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-august-27-2023-0

Key Takeaways:

  • Ukrainian forces reportedly advanced in the western Donetsk-eastern Zaporizhia Oblast border area and in western Zaporizhia Oblast amid Ukrainian counteroffensive operations in southern and eastern Ukraine.
  • A Ukrainian soldier likely operating in the Robotyne area offered further tactical details on the prepared Russian defensive positions that Ukrainian forces have penetrated and on those that are currently ahead of them.
  • The composition of Russian defensive positions in southern Ukraine and the ambiguities about how Russian forces are manning and equipping them continues to obscure how the next phase of fighting will transpire.
  • Russian forces conducted missile strikes against targets in Ukraine on the night of August 26 to 27 and reportedly targeted a Ukrainian airfield in Kyiv Oblast.
  • The Russian Investigative Committee announced on August 27 that genetic tests confirm that Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin was among 10 people killed in a plane crash on August 23.
  • Russian milbloggers claimed that the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) had been actively setting conditions to halt Wagner Group’s operations in the Middle East and Africa prior to Prigozhin’s death on August 23.
  • The Russian MoD may be more intensely focused on disbanding the Wagner Group than Russian President Vladimir Putin.
  • Russian forces conducted offensive operations along the Kupyansk-Svatove-Kreminna line, near Bakhmut, along the Avdiivka-Donetsk City line, in western Donetsk Oblast, and in western Zaporizhia Oblast but did not make confirmed advances.
  • Russian authorities continue efforts to coerce migrants and foreigners living in Russia to fight in the war in Ukraine in exchange for Russian citizenship.
Ukraine Invasion: Part 44