Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

The Lucy Letby case could dismantle the NHS

128 replies

Purpletreesinmygarden · 19/08/2023 07:37

NHS clinical employee of 25 yrs. Watched the news last night and was horrified, but sadly not surprised, at the managers’ responses- both those at the time of the deaths and now. These people are politicians at heart; they avoid taking any responsibility And are never held to account. Career -wise they only ever move sideways or up. Clinical staff who try to call them out get screwed. The senior drs on this unit knew what was going and yet were threatened and made to apologise. If you don’t work in the NHS please don’t think this this is an isolated incident…….whilst not necessarily on this scale and with quite such tragic consequences, this behaviour is rife in every hospital. Perhaps this case will finally bring some meaningful reform.

OP posts:
BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 19/08/2023 07:40

I agree it should spark a wider review ans reform, but unless we have a government who are passionate about making the NHS fit for purpose, nothing with change.

Sarahconnor1 · 19/08/2023 07:41

My OH is NHS and we had this same conversation yesterday.

tanstaafl · 19/08/2023 07:43

You end by saying ‘reform’ but that’s not in your OP title.
Nice click bait there OP.

Kweeky · 19/08/2023 07:43

One of the managers moved on to run 3 NHS areas (temporarily I think).
im sure there are many cases of bad managers being promoted regardless.

Medstudent12 · 19/08/2023 07:44

Doctor here and agree about coverups. I’m only a registrar but have made so many personal and financial sacrifices for my career, to have someone threaten to take it away because I am raising simple patient safety concerns? Doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Original poster
Purpletreesinmygarden · 19/08/2023 07:47

@tanstaafl - poor choice of words at the end. I don’t mean reform. The NHS needs dismantled completely……and this might just do it. There will always be some form of social healthcare left for those who can’t afford to Pay into a private healthcare plan, but that is where we are heading and this might just be a catalyst.

OP posts:
whereaw · 19/08/2023 07:47

Agree wholeheartedly. Incompetent and 'unworkable' people are simply moved to less prominent places, or with staff who will put up with them. There is no accountability.
In any large organisation there will be brilliant people and people who are incompetent, that's just the nature of it. The NHS is no different, and anyone within the NHS who is good at their job will agree with that.

TodayInahurry · 19/08/2023 07:47

Our NHS, the ‘envy of the world’. The only answer is to shut it down and start again, with a fraction of managers, diversity consultants etc

Everhopefulitwillbeok · 19/08/2023 07:49

Tories are up early this morning

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 07:50

Is this unique to the NHS though?

Big bosses in all business hide the ugly and shout about the good stuff.

I totally agree that, if the bosses covered up mass murder of patients, they should be sacked and face criminal conviction.

It isn't acceptable but let's not turn this isn't another NHS bashing. It's alive and present in all industries (look at the pollution the fuel industries get away with in plain sight). I'm all for holding them account but it's a shame when the conversation then turns back to how "corrupt" the NHS is. We know from cases abroad that the same shit happens in private hospitals.

There should be more governmental reporting and triggering of reviews. Aren't all deaths reported centrally? Why didn't government trigger an investigation based on an unusual peak in deaths?

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 07:51

@TodayInahurry yours is such a bombastic, simplistic, unhelpful opinion.

Do you think private companies don't hide shit? Do you think private hospitals run efficiently? Of course not, they just have more money to burn. Money that comes from vulnerable, ill people.

Be careful what you wish for. It's like Brexit all over again.

Tippley · 19/08/2023 07:52

No it won't. You'd hope it would bring about changes (unlikely) but it won't 'dismantle' the NHS, the much more likely thing to do that is the scaling up of faux doctors.

whereaw · 19/08/2023 07:53

Yes the NHS is unique, it's publicly funded and as tax payers we have every right to criticise it, as it very well deserves. Incompetence in the NHS is deadly. And not to this scale but I have encountered a lot of it. Brilliance too but lots of terrible decision making and total incompetence. But you can't say anything because apparently anyone who works in the NHS is deserving of sainthood.

Sarahconnor1 · 19/08/2023 07:55

I'm not sure a dismantling would solve the issue those very same managers would just move to where the career opportunities are.

What the NHS needs is accountability, where poor managers lose their jobs rather than simply moved on to new roles then promoted and whistle blowing needs to be taken seriously.

And it's not tory to worry about this stuff.

Tippley · 19/08/2023 07:56

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 07:51

@TodayInahurry yours is such a bombastic, simplistic, unhelpful opinion.

Do you think private companies don't hide shit? Do you think private hospitals run efficiently? Of course not, they just have more money to burn. Money that comes from vulnerable, ill people.

Be careful what you wish for. It's like Brexit all over again.

I agree with this, privatisation is in no way any sort of utopia. Many areas of healthcare here are already contracted out to the lowest bidder- staff invariably get less pay and worst terms and conditions. Very aspirational. I don't know why people assume people like serco, capita and the like who have fucked up elsewhere are going to swoop in and do a great job. Even HCPs in the US are being shafted now with pay and short staffed as greedy bosses want even more profits.

I don't think some sort of hybrid model would be the worst thing ever, but it would be much better under a capable and competent government who will actually make positive changes.

Tippley · 19/08/2023 07:57

whereaw · 19/08/2023 07:53

Yes the NHS is unique, it's publicly funded and as tax payers we have every right to criticise it, as it very well deserves. Incompetence in the NHS is deadly. And not to this scale but I have encountered a lot of it. Brilliance too but lots of terrible decision making and total incompetence. But you can't say anything because apparently anyone who works in the NHS is deserving of sainthood.

People always spout this but plenty of people criticise the NHS? And I don't think people largely say omg you can't complain at all. There's just a difference for wishing for there to be competent people in charge not afraid to make changes and wanting privitaisation.

SueVineer · 19/08/2023 07:57

I agree- nhs managers in many cases simply do not do their job properly yet are never disciplined, dismissed and seem to fail upwards. It’s often the same in other public sector organisations. While the private sector isn’t perfect, I’ve worked in both and efficiency and accountability is (as a general rule) 1000x better in the private sector

Whiskyinajar · 19/08/2023 07:59

Glad someone has pointed out that private health care has it's own scandals as well.

Yes there needs to be an inquiry about how the concerns around LL were handled but "dismantle the NHS" is a bit OTT

zizza · 19/08/2023 08:00

Since this happened there's a new system place in Trusts where they have Medical Examiners looking at every death, so I hope something like this would get picked up much quicker if it were to happen again.

But I completely agree with those saying that the managers who refused to deal with it now need to be held to account

ChesCazza · 19/08/2023 08:00

Unfortunately, I work in another area of the emergency services and the same issues are rife there as well.

I'm in a current situation where I have been thrown under the bus for daring to ask work related questions about the manager's favourite flying monkey. Bullying and verbal abuse are rife in my team. Too many idiots are removed from dangerous situations by promotion so they are someone else's problem.

I was so proud of the consultant on the documentary last night. It has probably taken him a lot of courage to speak out and I'm sure there are a lot of other people in his situation who we only interested in saving their own backsides and didn't stand by him.

Banditqueen12 · 19/08/2023 08:03

There are poor managers, and poor experts, in all sectors. But they are also a minority. What happened here should not have happened. But let's not use it as a cudgel to beat the overwhelming good features down. We should no more dismantle the the NHS over one tragic case than we should assume that all nurses murder patients.

Despite it's failings, and there are failings, the NHS is still the envy of much of the world. Try being poorer (not just poor!) in the USA and see what your wonderful healthcare offer will be. For those who want private medicine in the UK (and think that nothing ever goes badly there either) there is that option and you can have your pick. But the NHS needs support and change, not dismantling. That's just an excuse to sell off the best bits to Tory cronies and leave healthcare unaffordable to large sections of the population.

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 08:03

@Tippley I'm not referring to any posters when I say this, but I think most people who spout that type of stuff about NHS management, as though it's unique and as though the NHS is the worst run organisation ever, just don't have a clue. They're not thinking their argument through. They have zero idea how private healthcare is run. What impact it will have on the public and those who need to use it. Zero.

They see a problem with the NHS and they jump to "bring it down".

It's bombastic and dangerous. And I genuinely think that within a decade of privatising our healthcare, people who voted for it will be kicking themselves.

whereaw · 19/08/2023 08:05

@Tippley I think it's changing that way, but I did struggle during the pandemic when my dear gran died to incompetence and terrible decision making whilst the whole street was outside clapping, and I just couldn't bring myself to join in.
I don't believe it should be privatised.

Perfectlyblended · 19/08/2023 08:07

We had a recent incident which in my opinion was a severe matter at our hospital which was a doctors fault who then try to gaslight parents in to it being their fault. The management staff knew who’s fault it was, and months later the complaints still haven’t been dealt with and it 100 percent should have a severe consequence.
it will never change though !