The Lucy Letby case could dismantle the NHS

[Purpletreesinmygarden]

NHS clinical employee of 25 yrs. Watched the news last night and was horrified, but sadly not surprised, at the managers’ responses- both those at the time of the deaths and now. These people are politicians at heart; they avoid taking any responsibility And are never held to account. Career -wise they only ever move sideways or up. Clinical staff who try to call them out get screwed. The senior drs on this unit knew what was going and yet were threatened and made to apologise. If you don’t work in the NHS please don’t think this this is an isolated incident…….whilst not necessarily on this scale and with quite such tragic consequences, this behaviour is rife in every hospital. Perhaps this case will finally bring some meaningful reform.

Do posters actually think private hospitals would be better? They have managers too.

NHS needs a big overhaul but replaced by a private system . No thanks.

I really hope you are right OP. We need a hybrid system and for money to follow the patients, as in France and Germany. NHS is a classic communist “industry” and will gaslight patients rather than admit wrongdoing.

It doesn't need to be privatised, it doesn't need to be closed down, it doesnt need to be renamed or fully reformed but people that destroy it, the managers, the HR scum professionals, the non clinical consultants and other wastes of budgets and space need to go.
To be a clinical director or department manager, or CEO you ought to be suitaby medically qualified as a doctor or senior nurse at least, with extra training in clinical management. Which some hospitals do practice.
And get rid of management contractors or interims of several grand a day salaries or trainig budgets for useless courses of the type of "conflict resolution", "dealing with difficult colleagues" courses that cost thousands through private providers.
Medical staff need to be trained here to our standards medically and empathetically and not exported from third world with dubious qualifications, few communication skills, very little empathy and plenty of ingrained misogyny on which the society of origin runs while the manager or hr that brought them in gets a bonus for filling roles. With unsuitable people that do more damage than what they worth. As well as the people that hire them. Only psychopaths would do to NHS what's been done to it. It's abused and misused by the leeches. The leeches need to go, not the NHS

The majority of NHS managers, clerks and Hr need sacking. When a Consultants P.A ! earns more than a nurse you there is something very wrong in that organisation.

But only for those who can afford it.

Every system has faults. And the NHS does need change. But abolition is not the answer, and private healthcare in the hands of Tory cronies and profiteering is not the answer. Anyone who wants that model can have it anyway - they just have to buy it.

It's disingenous to suggest that US "advances" are based on a better healthcare system when huge parts of the population are excluded from those benefits anyway. US "improvements" are based on whether people can afford them and pay handsomely for them, and the companies act swiftly to stymie any challenge to their profitability, holding immense political sway and power. Poorer people in the UK already have many health disadvantages and a system that perpetuates unequal health outcomes. Making that more the case is not an improvement.

Yours is the unhelpful comment. We have a clear reason from every scandal: senior management ignoring protocol and closing ranks. It needs to change. They need to be held accountable.

The senior managers at Mid staffs got pay offs or new jobs when they should have got manslaughter. Don’t act obtuse, it’s not complicated.

And I’m sure it would be different if it was your family member who died covered in faeces screaming in a side room with a burnt out nurse caring for 18 patients.

Oh hey now don’t bring clerks into it. The support staff in the NHS are amazing and more vital than managers will ever be.

I agreed until the mild racism about clinicians.

Which NHS consultants have a PA?
In some hospitals the consultants don't even have their own office and share a secretary. Secretaries are very badly paid in the NHS.

There have medical serial killers throughout the world.

Paying for healthcare doesn't stop it. Free health care doesn't enable it.

The 'long waiting times for non-emergencies that site* claims for Germany are relative. I've had a couple of non-urgent ops over the last few years and the time between first visit to GP about it and op date, with visit to (freely chosen) specialist in between, was about 2 months in each case. My dh, for a similarly necessary but non-emergency op, had a month between appt with specialist (self-referral) and op. All on statutory insurance.

*Which is extremely out of date - the 10 € charge per quarter for GP/emergency appts was scrapped in 2012.

I watched The Good Nurse and realised this is what will happen here too. It's all about not getting sued, it's not about the Hippocratic oath or helping people, it's just covering backs and that's it.

There are bad managers everywhere who are then moved upwards to get them out if the shit they've caused.

In my case it was a man who changed my entire career. He'd been moved to lead our department, was entirely incompetent and fostered a climate of sexism to such an extent I left the industry. He's cost me my career and probably well over £1M in salary and pension. My children have had a worse life and will have a worse future. Just after I left he was moved upwards leaving a wreck behind. I noticed on linkedin recently he was retiring from being the compy's chief executive of The Americas. He has made many many millions and has a wealthy retirement ahead of him. Makes me sick.

It's not just the NHS.

Whilst it doesn't have anywhere near the same impact on public safety obviously, and Network Rail is another prime example of incompetence being rewarded.

If you're shit at your job, rather than being fired, you're moved - usually upwards, but sometimes sideways - so as to be out of the firing line. Leads to top tier management that aren't there through ability, but rather strategic decision making to get them out of the way and let the 'little people' clear up the mess. Senior management is therefore primarily made up of people who were useless at more hands on roles (with a few exceptions, admittedly).

Sounds much like the government, really, doesn't it?

I bloody hope so. The NHS has some very serious flaws and this is the biggest. Covering up, denying issues, and flat out lying. The doctor nearly killed my son during delivery and the lengths they went to cover it up were shocking. It needs a total overhaul.

So you want the NHS gone, fair enough but don't use this evil womens actions & the deaths of so many babies to justify your right wing aims.

Why would there be some form of social healthcare left for those that cannot afford it?
If you cannot afford private dental care, in most parts of the UK, its tough, there is no alternative.

Evil exists in both private and public sector health and its the Govt of the day that sets employee's rights and employer responsibilities.

We pay for the NHS though - vast vast quantities of money and our taxes. This isn’t even the BBC where you choose to watch TV and pay for a licence. The NHS and these manager are funded directly by me and my taxes and others - Lucy Letby was the murderer and is responsible for those deaths and injuries - but they did not take accountability for what she did and concerns were swept away / you had doctors and nurses saying they would only work with her if cctv was in every single room and being forced to apologise for accusing her. The managers in the NHS are career managers and just look after their own backs. It is not fit for purpose at all. We always hear of more money and more resources and the impact on the ground - we could double funding and it still wouldn’t be enough. People go on and on about the NHS being free - it’s not - billions and billions of pounds, staff aren’t happy, billions of appointments wasted, it needs a total overhaul etc.

There are pockets of excellence and I have fully seen them in action. My youngest needed very specialist treatment for a specific condition eg eye sight - GP made a referral - letter about 2 days later, with an appointment 6 weeks away - excellent - couldn’t make that appointment as out of the country and phoned the number. Secretary answered - no problem - actually, just had a cancellation for this afternoon don’t suppose you can come in - yes, ok threadbare carpets, old chairs, etc welcomed with a massive smile - put them at ease - apologies sorry we only have this corridor and it’s a tiny wait area. No problem secretaries or nurses kept everyone up to date eg John you are next - about 10 more minutes. In for test, everything explained- diagnosis given - right next stages are this and this etc I understand although you expected this diagnosis that it’s still a massive shock - so please ring if you have any more questions. We will need to see them again in a few weeks - we will make the appointment now etc - I could believe it - a failing hospital and this department was wonderful. But this was everyone working together. They were under that department for 4 years and I never received anything but excellence from them.

managers work with staff, staff work other staff, everyone valued, everyone working together

but on the other side I’ve had secretaries would told me in polite speak to F off, letters mislaid or even not typed up until 6 months or more later. Referrals not made, not received, delays etc and paperwork lost. A friend died from it - an urgent appointment for heart problems referred and mistyped as a normal wait and not critical. He died whilst waiting. His GP found the error - letters wrongly typed etc and if you ask on here there will be hundreds of similar - the NHS is riddled with it - no accountability and everything covered up - ironically trying to prove they are good by covered up failures. The way to change is to acknowledge it - open culture - letters not being sent - why not? More staff needed? Or staff off ill? How can we deal with it and change it?

it’s seems people think the NHS is an angel we can’t criticise as it’s free and we should be bloody grateful to have it and all the hard working staff on their knees for us and it’s all the fault of governments and funding no other reason.

Perhaps being an NHS employee has given you an idealistic view of what a privatised world looks like. Private companies are absolutely rife with the same types of behaviour - incompetence; mismanagement; direct or indirect punishment of those who raise concerns; cover ups. The list goes on. Dismantling the NHS doesn’t solve the problem. It just moves it elsewhere.

Power corrupts unfortunately. Creating a tiered health system just means poorer people miss out. Privatised dental care is enough to convince me just how awful things could become. I dread a day where I have to pay for my health care in the same way I have to pay my dental care.

PP who said secretaries are paid badly hasn't got a clue. Generally paid more than nurses. Plus they have the additional benefit of being able to "WFH" while abroad on holiday. Shit you not. This behaviour is absolutely rife in my local hospital (ex employee!)

Op you perhaps are unaware of how the healthcare system in the USA (private) is much worse for allowing coverups to occur.

I think people seem to think if you’re critical of the nhs then you’re right wing and want a private system.

It is possible to be critical of the NHS as it is now and still support the idea of an NHS in principle.

It’s when you have people blindly trusting the current system and standing out on their doorsteps “clapping the NHS” that we get into problems because it supports the idea of the NHS being God-like. That isn’t helpful to anyone.

I don't think criticism of the NHS should be seen as a left wing/right wing issue. That's a somewhat dismissive attitude - people both sides of the aisle can clearly see issues in our current system. It's to the detriment of the left if they build their identity on our "great", "enviable" NHS when I think public perception of the NHS is increasingly critical and reaching breaking point. There will come a point in the future when an election may be swung on this issue - and bunging a few more hundred million into the money pit will not be the vote winner.

My Dad died earlier this year, and some of the NHS systems absolutely bewildered me. Constant hospital referrals and appointments - which for someone frail and elderly were horrendous ordeals and would take out most of my accessible time off from work. Rarely did anything helpful happen, and I think the NHS could save billions by simplifying elderly care and putting it in the community instead. At one count, Dad had 18 outpatient appointments in a 3 month period, and in the end, I rang his GP and asked them to put a stop to it all. Thankfully, that then lead to a specialist palliative care nurse who came to see him at home and life was so much simpler.

Add this up all over the country, add in patient transport. And an ageing population. It's madness.

Exactly @Duchessofspace WE (collectively) paid for Lucy Letby to murder babies and for management to (unwittingly or not) cover it up. We have every right to criticise and demand change and it is not a left vs right, public vs private issue. If anyone thinks it is they are not thinking at all.

I saw a horrific allegations of a cover up in the USA a few days ago. Stop reading now if you are squeamish!

A baby died after being decapitated during delivery. He had shoulder dystocia and the dr tried to deliver using forceps and broke a lot of boxes in the baby's head and neck. They then did a c section and found the baby had been decapitated. As absolutely horrific as that was, the hospital tried to cover this up by only allowing mum to see baby behind a glass wall, and they propped his head up so it looked attached. They only found out what happened via the funeral home.

Don't assume that private = more transparent. When has that ever been the case in reality?