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Original poster

The Lucy Letby case could dismantle the NHS

128 replies

Purpletreesinmygarden · 19/08/2023 07:37

NHS clinical employee of 25 yrs. Watched the news last night and was horrified, but sadly not surprised, at the managers’ responses- both those at the time of the deaths and now. These people are politicians at heart; they avoid taking any responsibility And are never held to account. Career -wise they only ever move sideways or up. Clinical staff who try to call them out get screwed. The senior drs on this unit knew what was going and yet were threatened and made to apologise. If you don’t work in the NHS please don’t think this this is an isolated incident…….whilst not necessarily on this scale and with quite such tragic consequences, this behaviour is rife in every hospital. Perhaps this case will finally bring some meaningful reform.

OP posts:
FerryPink · 19/08/2023 09:55

You think management would be any different in a private entity? I have worked in private and public sector and can assure you the issues are the same everywhere. The coverup would probably have been far worse

Decisions would be profit driven

And life or death decisions would be made by insurance companies who would be thinking about the interests of their shareholders

I see people with my condition in the US and the battles they face, even if they are wealthy and have decent insurance, the co-pays can be so huge in sinks them

FerryPink · 19/08/2023 09:56

You think management would be any different in a private entity? I have worked in private and public sector and can assure you the issues are the same everywhere. The coverup would probably have been far worse

Decisions would be profit driven

And life or death decisions would be made by insurance companies who would be thinking about the interests of their shareholders

I see people with my condition in the US and the battles they face, even if they are wealthy and have decent insurance, the co-pays can be so huge in sinks them

RichardMarxisinnocent · 19/08/2023 10:00

Dungareelass · 19/08/2023 09:33

PP who said secretaries are paid badly hasn't got a clue. Generally paid more than nurses. Plus they have the additional benefit of being able to "WFH" while abroad on holiday. Shit you not. This behaviour is absolutely rife in my local hospital (ex employee!)

No idea what Trust you work at, but at mine people doing secretarial work for consultants are generally band 3, there may be team leaders on band 4, whereas nurses start on band 5. Secretaries are absolutely not paid more than nurses.

whereaw · 19/08/2023 10:01

Instead of arguing about public vs private would it not be better to discuss and debate what changes could be possible (and very much needed) within a public system? I would love to know opinions and ideas on that, real insights from people who have relevant knowledge and experience. Rather than assumptions that the only possibility is to privatise and how stupid you must be for suggesting it.

DrasticAction · 19/08/2023 10:05

Accountability is a massive issue across public run bodies including the police, schools, colleges, NHS and so on.

BlastedPimples · 19/08/2023 10:06

Privatising the NHS is an utterly shit idea.

Time and time again it's been proven that private companies often do an appalling job (water + sewage anyone?) and rip off customers.

Do not let your NHS be privatised by these ghouls who simply want to make a fortune.

BlastedPimples · 19/08/2023 10:07

And accountability is massive issue everywhere. Not just in public run institutions

Belladonna56 · 19/08/2023 10:07

porridgecake · 19/08/2023 08:24

The USA system is not the only alternative thank goodness. It is a terrible system with pretty poor outcomes considering the cost.
France and Spain have good health care, accessible to all, for just a little bit more cost. People pay according to their income.
I would be willing to pay a bit more tax if I knew it wouldn't disappear into a black hole of mismanagement.
Whistle blowers seem to be treated badly in every industry. I feel desperately sorry for the doctors in that hospital who tried to raise the alarm.

I agree with this. We should have a sliding scale of charges, with some people paying nothing, and others a percentage of their income, which should be reviewed each year to accommodate those whose income fluctuates.
Other countries manage similar arrangements, but the UK seems hell bent on keeping the NHS free (which is being eroded anyway).
There is too much leeway for cover ups, for lack of real transparency and far too many managers.
I don't think the LL case will change everything completely, but the system needs an overhaul. Whistleblowers need to be listened to and acted upon instead of being threatened.

CloudyMcCloudy · 19/08/2023 10:07

peelyjuice · 19/08/2023 08:52

I don't work in the NHS but have worked in other public sector industries.

Huge culture of cover ups & scapegoats sigh whistleblowers often getting frozen out. Do I think this will change anything? unfortunately no

If the culture is like that then I agree it’s a problem

A shocking and awful one in this case

whereaw · 19/08/2023 10:08

@DrasticAction do you think the overall trend toward centralisation (vs localisation) is contributing to that? I've always thought it is a big factor. By human nature we take less accountability when we have less control.

whereaw · 19/08/2023 10:09

Which is true in public and private. So the fact that it's a problem everywhere isn't really an argument at all. Things still need to change!

Perfectlyblended · 19/08/2023 10:09

@BlastedPimples i have to say I don’t want to see the nhs completely privatised but we are under a private company as it was sold to it years ago, for a certain condition. We don’t pay for it the nhs but Anyway I have to say they are incredible !
even during covid when everything was up creak and they had staffing issues. There was plans in place.

FerryPink · 19/08/2023 10:10

ArcticSkewer · 19/08/2023 09:33

Op you perhaps are unaware of how the healthcare system in the USA (private) is much worse for allowing coverups to occur.

Exactly

Emmelina · 19/08/2023 10:17

I agree a huge case review needs to be carried out as to why concerns were dismissed so many times, but it’s not going to be the end of the NHS. She’s not the first nurse to do this (Beverley Allitt in the 90’s was a huge case) but it’s still an incredibly rare issue.

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 19/08/2023 10:18

ChesCazza · 19/08/2023 08:00

Unfortunately, I work in another area of the emergency services and the same issues are rife there as well.

I'm in a current situation where I have been thrown under the bus for daring to ask work related questions about the manager's favourite flying monkey. Bullying and verbal abuse are rife in my team. Too many idiots are removed from dangerous situations by promotion so they are someone else's problem.

I was so proud of the consultant on the documentary last night. It has probably taken him a lot of courage to speak out and I'm sure there are a lot of other people in his situation who we only interested in saving their own backsides and didn't stand by him.

I think you must be employed in the same non-NHS emergency service as me 😂

we have an extremely similar management. Totally ineffective.
I would liken it to someone telling J Bruce Ismay that Captain Smith was about to crash the titanic into an iceberg, while pointing out the iceberg, and Ismay saying "no it's fine, go away and stop bothering me"

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 19/08/2023 10:20

Whoops I forgot the necessary sentence

many complaints have been made, thr senior management have been told on multiple occasions what the issues are, do they listen ? Of course not.
they just start a new "focus group" in the hope that, one year, the staff will tell them what they want to hear.

StopGo · 19/08/2023 10:22

The NHS is as institutionally inept as all public services but no government has the appetite to deal with the rot.

Parliament, government, health care, police, ambulance, fire etc etc are all tainted.

ScottishIceCream · 19/08/2023 10:24

whereaw · 19/08/2023 10:01

Instead of arguing about public vs private would it not be better to discuss and debate what changes could be possible (and very much needed) within a public system? I would love to know opinions and ideas on that, real insights from people who have relevant knowledge and experience. Rather than assumptions that the only possibility is to privatise and how stupid you must be for suggesting it.

I agree with you! It seems that if you criticise the NHS, and think it needs "dismantling", supporters only have, well private's no better, to throw at you.

My local NHS Trust isn't fit for purpose. It's an absolute shambles throughout, well-known scandals, and the quality of care my mum received recently was utterly appalling, and this was from nurses and hca staff on the ward. They are an absolute disgrace.

The NHS is a mess, and throwing money at it without going right back to basics is a complete waste of money. In an ideal world it would be stripped back, and the whole thing built up again from scratch, but it's people's lives so it's incredibly difficult to do that.

Do I think private is the answer, no I do not. The NHS is already insurance based, through NI, and that needs to be ringfenced, recalculated, and be made clear that we're all already paying into the scheme because right now a lot of people are invested in pushing the narrative that it's not being paid for by the general public, when it is.

I don't know what the answer is, but investment without structural change isn't going to work long term imo.

UnderCarraigeWoes · 19/08/2023 10:26

After going from public sector to private I'm not surprised at all.

They have major scandals and trot out the they'll. be a thorough investigation line and low and behold another tragic scandal rears its ugly head.

Managers are moved on (often sideways or upwards) and not held to account. They're like a family which close ranks as soon as something bad happens often abusing their power to shut those up who are asking difficult questions.

watcherintherye · 19/08/2023 10:29

I think the deification of the NHS by a large proportion of the general public is partly to blame. It feeds into the cover-up ‘we can do no wrong’ culture, which still prevails.

ScottishIceCream · 19/08/2023 10:37

Belladonna56 · 19/08/2023 10:07

I agree with this. We should have a sliding scale of charges, with some people paying nothing, and others a percentage of their income, which should be reviewed each year to accommodate those whose income fluctuates.
Other countries manage similar arrangements, but the UK seems hell bent on keeping the NHS free (which is being eroded anyway).
There is too much leeway for cover ups, for lack of real transparency and far too many managers.
I don't think the LL case will change everything completely, but the system needs an overhaul. Whistleblowers need to be listened to and acted upon instead of being threatened.

Show quote history

I rest my case!!!

Smellslikesummer · 19/08/2023 10:52

the NHS is still the envy of much of the world
I never heard that before moving to the UK 10y ago. Not sure why people here believe that.

The French system is way better IMO, as is the Swiss one. Random examples:

I had never had to sleep in a ward with so many other patients before moving to the UK. Decent food as well.

After giving birth you have a comfortable stay in the hospital, they teach you how to care for the baby and look after him when you sleep.

You can very often visit a specialist without having to waste time seeing a GP for a referral.

Women’s health (contraception, smears, etc) : you go to a specialist doctor, instead of the GP/nurse.

No waiting for a letter to know when your next appointment is, you book in person or over the phone and you can choose the day/time, not just get what they give you.

Honestly I could go on and on. No, the NHS is not the envy of the world…

DrasticAction · 19/08/2023 10:52

@ScottishIceCream I agree its far too patchy.

It shouldn't be hit or miss if you get good care.

I hate whens I've says, had a dreadful time at x and someone else else jumps in " well my df had amazing care there"

It's bloated and run badly.

Oh for rhe days Like e carry on films with beautiful hospital wards, a strict matron upholding cleanliness and standards

janicewithpictures · 19/08/2023 11:13

Try being poorer (not just poor!) in the USA and see what your wonderful healthcare offer will be.

@Banditqueen12 Making a comparison with the American system is easy but it is LAZY THINKING.
Try comparisons with Australia or France or Scandinavia. Do some real analysis then, if you really want change do something. Even if you only write to your MP or local paper or village newsletter. In 6 months time write again, Repeat and Repeat.

stbrandonsboat · 19/08/2023 11:14

It's not an NHS problem, it's a people problem. I experienced exactly the same thing in private healthcare. I even had to leave a job after whistleblowing.

From what I've seen, people in all industries and in private life go to great lengths to minimise any concerns that are raised about anything at all, ignore problems, obfuscate, avoid dealing with the problem, pass the buck and outright lie to avoid dealing with it. They also blame others and refuse to hold others to account.

Not all individuals do this, but enough do and it leads to big problems.