Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

Oh I'm really not invested either way. No campaigning for me. Very much a passing interest.

Mainly it's actually reminded me of all the actual miscarriages of justice which I do feel really sad for the people about. It just does remind me. Couldn't say why. But I've been thinking about them this week, and how hard it must be to be convicted of something and know you are innocent.

Different scenarios.

In particular the poor mothers convicted for the multiple deaths of their children based on scientific evidence that later turned out to be a mess. Sally Clark. Kathleen Folbigg.

And the nurse, Lucia De Berg. Dodgy stats.

And of course this week's case of Andrew Malkinson, which is pretty awful. Totally unrelated in this case but at the forefront of my mind I suppose. Can you trust the state to not hide evidence? Apparently not.

Happily none of these cases affect me personally so I don't have more than a passing interest.

I hadn't connected in my mind til another post on here but I know someone whose baby died at the Countess. Consultant led care with serious mistakes. Midwife was sacked and deregistered (whatever the word is for that). Consultant not reprimanded. They look after their own at doctor level at that hospital.

Hi-

The insulin is concerning undoubtedly even for me but there is no forensic only circumstantial evidence regarding her involvement.

Haven't seen the responses or deletions on that thread. Will look now.

May I ask what is the correlation between unfaithful partners and my opinion of a miscarriage of justice on this thread? Can you tell me? I can't quite understand it. I'd be grateful if you could tell me so.

Thank you for your deductions. May I ask your evidence that I am a friend of LL? I'd be grateful to hear so.

@Mooshamoo I'm sorry to hear of your past but what is the relevance to this case?

I think people just mean she looks young and fresh-faced, not hard. Not necessarily anything to do with colour. Anyway, what does a ‘middle-class’ face look like?? You’re applying notions, but where’s the proof?

@ArcticSkewer

You aren’t fooling anyone. You’re trying make a connection to other ‘miscarriages of justice’ and Lucy Letby in people’s minds.

Which would be a great strategy if the case wasn’t entirely different. Just because they are both nurses and are accused of child murder doesn’t make the evidence or the investigation remotely similar. They aren’t.

The most damning thing for Lucy Letby is that the deaths and collapses followed her from the Night Shift to the day shift and then stopped completely when she was suspended. Explain that away if you can.

A lot of people are reacting to the the conviction for killing babies in as you can understand in an emotional way. But hold on how much can we trust the police and institutions in the UK ?
Looking at the facts Lucy Letby is very unlikely to be a psychopath, sociopath or suffer MBP as Allit did. I say this as if she did the would be evidence of somekind which we don't.
Only she knows if she did it and even if she didn't the accusations could make her question her self and would cause severe stress and trauma.
Then we look at the 6 years the prosecution had to put their case together, not limited by funds in their pursuit of expert witnesses.
Was there cluster deaths, sloopy practice by hospital staff?. letby's defence was obviously financially challenged and only called call one expert, a plumber as their withess. The defence only had 10 moths to prepare I believe. Then we have fairly detailed reports by another scientist on the web stating the prosecution expert witness testimony is putting it mildly not up to scratch.
Personally I have no faifth in the conviction, this could turn out to be one of the biggest miscarriage of justice in the UK for a long time. At any rate Letby deserves a proper evenly matched defence upon appeal as if sentenced the tariff may well be whole life.

What is the significance of the plumber as witness? Did he provide anything beyond character witness?

Poo in the sink somewhere I believe.

If someone has a history of having posts deleted regularly then that would imply that as a whole their posts are particularly unpleasant. The one on this thread was deleted was vile and deserved to be deleted.

I read a couple of autobiography, s about Beverley Allitt admittedly many years ago now ,the thing is Alllit had only been working for a few months when she was arrested and she only got the job as they Were desperate for staff ,nurse training has changed a lot since Beverley Allit did hers I doubt very much she would have got through it these days
Lucy had been working for a number of years before her killing spree begani think that's one of the reasons it so shocking maybe more will.come out about her now she's been found guilty .

@SadHappy

And are you in any way qualified to make that call? What, apart from reading bits of second hand crap on the internet, makes you think you know anything about the ins and outs of this extremely complex case? A case so complex it took 10 months to go through all the evidence.

Do you even know the first this about the court system or U.K. law or police operations.

Or did you buy LL’s family story that she was a bullying victim? Have you even listened to her colleagues being interviewed? Th pictured painted by her family and friends is not accurate. But I suppose there is a sucker born every minute.

I do t know enough about the characteristics but is that sociopathic type behaviours? Cantering oneself and telling lies not realising or caring that others will catch you out because the information is in the public domain?

It was to talk about the sewage in the hospital. LL says that sewage was coming out of the taps and was on the floor of the baby unit, with the idea that infections could gave caused the deaths

@SadHappy The defense consulted many expert witnesses on the medical side but chose not to bring their opinions to the court - that is telling in itself.

@itsgettingweird

That’s what I thought. The fact she has a few friends really going to bat for her reinforces this impression. She’s worked on a few people- the ones who are useful to her- so that they think she can do now wrong. It is very interesting to hear people coming out now to say that she wasn’t quite as nice as she tried to seem, which I think shown in the texts.

Was there any evidence to suggest Shipman a a sociopath/psychopath, before he started killing?

And do you have to have have a label to be a killer? Are we all keen to ascribe labels to killers, so that we can other them and feel more secure that we would never do that? Is it sometimes killers have less impulse control, so rather than the 'I wonder what would happen if....?' They just act?

And how many more are actually out there, working with vulnerable babies/children/ old people, but just don't get caught because they're not as prolific?

You don’t think that in ten months the prosecution could have found more than a plumber to be a witness? Really?

And the “scientist” on the web hasn’t put their name to their “article” or their credentials, and the arguments they have put forward are full of holes. And presumably if they were that renouned they would have been called as a witness for the defence?
There are a lot of crackpot conspiracy theorists on the web, just look at the nutjobs who crawled out of the woodwork during cOVID to talking about how it wasn’t a virus and was a hoax.

I don’t think a that an unnamed page on the internet counts as credible.

What makes you think there’s grounds for appeal?

Rightly so. It's men after all who overwhelmingly kill. Far, far more unusual in women.

@SadHappy Do you have any understanding of the UK justice system? She can request an appeal of conviction but it is unlikely to be granted, certainly at this moment in time there doesn't seem to be any grounds for it - and no, a random "scientist" posting stuff on-line is not compelling new evidence.

Was there any evidence to suggest Shipman a a sociopath/psychopath, before he started killing?

Yes. He was controlling with his wife and his staff.
He was only really capable of working on his own, not with a group practice.
He would not let his children start their dinner (even if it was on the table) unless he was in the house - so if he was held up with a patient he made them all sit there with cold food until he turned up.

He ridiculed any staff members who he thought were beneath him.

He got really interested in lots of things and just as quickly, lost interest and walked away.

All the more reason for the public inquiry we’re not going to get. I’ve a feeling other shortcomings will emerge which allowed Letby to continue undetected, apart from the failings of management. I haven’t worked out yet how many babies would probably have been saved if the insulin poisoning had been picked up by a doctor when it should’ve been.