Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

Thank you.

Your post wasn’t deleted for having an opinion, it was deleted because of the truly vile and despicable manner in which you expressed that opinion.

What about the fact she was the only staff member that was always on shift every time a baby died?

Yes agree. They took time to go through each count and decide based on the months of evidence. I think the jury has done an incredible job in exceedingly difficult and traumatising circumstances and I hope they get lots of post trial support.

I am very sad for you to read your post and am sorry you went through that. It sounds as though you are just traumatised, not cold and hard by nature. I do hope you have rl support.

Obviously @nolamesallowed · is another member of the Lucy Letby fan club. Maybe the friend?

It's no point trying to point anything out to the members of the Lucy fan club on here, they are "not convinced" by what they have read online and in the press and think she is a scapegoat for nasty male consultants and a corrupt hospital.

It has been suggested repeatedly that her appearance likely contributed to the reluctance to suspect her and delay in investigating.

I agree with that, and that appearance includes her youth, physical attractiveness and race.

I think this mix of factors either caused management not to believe she could be capable of wrongdoing or if they had even a scintilla of doubt they may have thought, while they protected their reputation, that other agencies would similarly struggle to find her culpable based on these factors.

had she been a white, older overweight woman or a young black woman I think presumptions about her involvement would have been very different.

I won’t dwell on the race aspect in this case, it’s far too sad for that but it’s clear that a lot of people were taken in by ‘nice’ Lucy.

robust systems for investigating people and allowing whistle blowers to feel safe to complain must be put in place.

Yes, and they obviously know better than the jury who have listened to ALL the evidence (not just what's been reported to the public) over 10 months.

@nolamesallowed You get quite a few posts deleted don't you? - just looking at the OW thread....

That spreadsheet isn’t statistics. It’s a visual representation of who was on duty at the time of each murder and attempted murder. Only Letby’s name appears for all of them.

Hideous isn’t it. And in the case of the one whose post was removed, it couldn’t rest with questioning evidence, it had to extend to being vile about the parents of those murdered babies.

I'm really not that invested either way btw. It became a bit more interesting afterwards as the media accounts are so weirdly unconvincing.

Perhaps it's just on the back of the long covered up evidence that could have freed Malkinson - the state will lie and cover up and lie once they've decided on a course.

And the similarities in the media accounts with the De Berk case (statistics really can be manipulated or misread, if being generous, to show anything). That could just be the media emphasising something that wasn't actually a big part of the case against her - hope so.

Add in the constantly changing science - so many people have been freed after long sentences based on 'murders that turned out to be natural causes'

And not one profile of her sounds remotely convincing as a mass murderer - so far, anyway.

And that's all really. I would not be remotely surprised if this is eventually overturned

I’ve been off to Tattle and Reddit to find more details and return even mor convinced that she did it. I do think she is manipulative person. If you read her texts to her friends and colleagues she is always looking to centre herself in a situation- everything seems to be about her. She also gets caught out in strange lies, like the one about being arrested in her night gown.

But I think she flew under the radar because she had cultivated that ‘nice’ persona. If someone is nice, efficient and hard working then it is easy to dismissive things about them that might be questioned in anyone else. And it seemed she relied on that.

@ArcticSkewer And I wouldn't be remotely surprised that she lives and dies in prison on her probable whole life order.

I don’t think most people will be. Or perhaps in a secure hospital.

@ArcticSkewer

Just because a conviction is over turned doesn’t mean someone is innocent. It just means that the evidence was compromised or not complete enough. There are many cases where it is clear someone committed the crime but the evidence collected didn’t pass the burden of proof.

It is pretty dangerous for people to imagine they know better than the jury based on gut feeling and few facts.

Just look up the Bain family murders in New Zealand to see how misguided attempt to help someone with what they considered to be a miscarriage of justice led to a family annihilation murderer to be freed.

This is really interesting. I don’t know how the hospital ranked in 2015/16, but from what went on regarding the doubts over Letby it reads as if there was already conflict between managers and consultants. It seems there was already an established lack of trust between them, and clinical shortcomings that put managers under pressure would have fed into that. The fact that key members of the management team were moved on as soon as Letby was arrested suggests NHS bosses were already involved at a much higher level, and no doubt have been since. I think they must have been preparing for the management failures to unravel. Drawing Sarah Everard as a parallel, I think the NHS has questions to answer from the top down, just as the Met did. Both hierarchies more interested in protecting their own backs than in protecting the public.

Exactly.

I also doubt she will get permission to appeal the conviction - seeing as the defense declined to prevent any evidence to the court from experts that they consulted, then it is unlikely that fresh evidence can be cited.

The Richard Gill who's been issued with formal warning(s) from Cheshire Police about his behaviour online regarding the Letby case?

The same Richard Gill who stated he wanted to "storm the court with an AK-47" ?

I'll pass, thanks.

There's a huge amount of lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of the case on this thread. Those who think, for example, that she 'murdered' the insulin babies should do some further reading. Just one article should do it. (Spoiler, both those babies survived).

@nolamesallowed im curious as to your thoughts on the insulin case. How do you think they occurred or who do you think administered it if you’re not sure of LL’s guilt?

Posted yesterday to say I had doubts. I now have fewer doubts after reading this Times article: https://archive.ph/Nj46S

It's a very good timeline of what happened.

Although there's a paragraph that stands out for me. After three poor babies had died in a fortnight, a doctor began looking at how this could have happened:

The deaths were reported by consultants to the hospital trust’s committee for serious incidents, responsible for examining matters of patient safety. But the hospital classified them as “medication errors”, rather than a “serious incident involving an unexpected death”.

I'm confused as to what happened once the hospital had classed these three deaths as 'medication errors' – wasn't that extremely serious by itself? Weren't the parents told? While this hasn't really got much to do with the eventual outcome, it seems very strange that the hospital thought medication errors had caused three baby deaths in a fortnight, yet nothing seemed to happened next.

I'm not saying she's innocent, I saying no matter whatsomrone has done it is odd to wish violence and pain on them.