Lucy Letby guilty

[BarelyLiterate]

Lucy Letby has been convicted of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of six more.

My thoughts are with the families of the victims.

I agree. I think they've taken beyond reasonable doubt seriously and each case individually.

I posted this further back but copied it as its a long thread

Not ness. Insulin in most places i have worked is in a locked fridge, but the keys are handed around as needed, the doors have access codes on them but dont require card access. It is in glass vials and we draw up as many units as we need, this is the checked by a second nurse against a prescription and placed back in the fridge. But its not documented how much we have in the fridge at any given time. Controlled drugs are written in books, we write in what we took and what was placed back and it is again checked and witnessed by a second nurse. But insulin isnt a controlled drug, anyone can have the keys and quantities arent written down.

I however, work in adult wards and areas, this could be different in childrens care, and could vary between trusts.

Totally agree.
They aren't monsters, they're humans, and humans are capable of monstrous things, for whatever reason. We don't want to believe that people like you & I can be capable of such heinous acts, so they are 'othered' by being called monsters, evil (as a noun, not an adjective), etc.

Historically people were, amongst other things, under the influence of satan, or possessed by demons, if they didn't act like the rest of us, or did things outside of an accepted moral framework.

It'll always be hard to accept that people can do such horrific things, but they can. And it's naff all to do with some external force.

Christ. I just watched the interview with one of the doctors that reported her. His name is Dr. Ravi something.

He said that he tried to report her several times, and he was told that at first

"It was a convenient thing to say"
"That it would make the hospital look bad if there was a police investigation".

Him and other doctors reported her to management again. This time she was moved off the NICU to another area.

Lucy launched a grievance. Management found in her favour.

Management then said that the consultants had acted unprofessionally, and they made them apologise to Lucy.

Shocking.

@DysonSpheres maybe you want, in your righteous indignation, to look up the meaning of circumstantial evidence. Its perfectly valid in court. It's often used in murder cases to secure convictions. It doesn't mean what a lot of the public take it to mean, that it isn't "proper" evidence.

This.

It never crossed my mind when we went to nice everyday.

Those babies, murdered right at the beginning of life.

nicu

What on earth would SEVEN consultants have to fear about being reported to the GMC? They would all be corroborating each other’s concerns. It makes no sense - seven of them being reported to the GMC, all with the same defence, would have blown the whole thing wide open. Plus, whistleblowers are protected by law. Seven whistleblowers, all of them consultants, keeping shtum? No way.

I have no idea whether she did it - there’s no actual evidence so you can’t weigh it up properly. But the stuff about the consultants is bizarre.

I agree. They obviously were very thorough and thought everything through. I thinknif they'd given guilty verdicts all at once across the board, rather than one hy one over several days, I'd have less faith in their verdicts.

But they've obviously given time to each one and decided some just didn't meet the beyond reasonable doubt threshold.

Why isn't insulin a controlled drug in hospitals, if it is lethal if injected.

I suppose all drugs are lethal if injected, so why aren't all drugs controlled?

Naive trust? No they always close ranks. Its typical behaviour. Shall I link the Francis Report on Mid Staffs?

Until managers are held accountable nothing will change.

Why shame on her? Maybe it's just a struggle to accept this about someone you were close to.

What are you on about?

It's the norm.

Go and look up the nhs scandals in the last 20 years. It's always the same story. Managers ignore safety reports, they treat clinicians with contempt. Try whistleblowing in the NHS, you'll get ostracised and bullied out.

ForTheLoveOfSleep · Today 13:25

She didn't appear for the verdict. What a cowardly, psychotic, cunt. I hope they force her to appear for sentencing

@ForTheLoveOfSleep not trying to be a penickity arse but being psychotic is a real illness, this woman isn’t it.
people with psychosis, have lost touch with reality, they aren’t generally murderers/serial killers.

@Beverlysparty

You are seriously equating the horror of what she has been found guilty of and the massive shock for her parents, with the experience ofparents whose children do not make them grandparents? No words!

What on earth are you talking about?

I made no such comparison in my post whatsoever.

Time mostly, if every dose of paracetamol required the control drugs book filling and two nurses then care would be worse than it is now. Plus 99.9% of nurses give out meds according to prescriptions.

However, some parts of my trust now have omnicells, where by a nurse uses a fingerprint to access all meds, and they have to be linked to a patient, the omnicell has a fridge connected too, so to access the insulin it would leave an electronic trail. The omnicells are massive though, most wards would not have space to house one.

I can honestly say I feel completely torn about this. From what IVE heard, I leaned on the side of not guilty. The evidence was too circumstantial, the hospital procedures weren't good, and it all just felt too weak to convict someone of murder. I also didn't find the quote such as "coming back to work with a bang" in any way a sign of guilt. It's a very normal phrase to use when coming back into a hectic work environment such as a hospital. I think a lot of the evidence was painted in retrospect with a bias to find her guilty.

HOWEVER I wonder if there's more that I haven't heard, so I look forward to seeing if more comes out over the next few weeks.

Im not trying to say she's not guilty, I honestly don't know from the evidence I heard. But I guess that was my point; if the evidence isn't conclusive or persuasive (to me) then I don't feel comfortable calling her guilty.

I feel a bit sad. The case was a shit show really. If I were a parent (and I've had two premature children in NICU so I'm very aware of how vulnerable you feel and how vulnerable babies are) I'm not sure the case would have given me any closure. I think, whilst having someone to blame may feel better than no one, I would probably only feel better if I KNEW the convicted person was guilty, and I'm not sure anyone can say that based on the sketchy evidence. Again, I'm not saying she isn't guilty, just that it's hard to prove that based on the evidence presented.

Sad situation all round. I hope the jury got it right and she's deserving of the sentence and life she's going to have for the foreseeable future. I hope justice has been served.

Assuming that she doesn't confess and tries to maintain innocence can she request an appeal? And does it have to be granted? Or is there enough evidence to not allow this?

You don't know when it was filmed. I had a friend that we all defended. Her case made national press. We only heard the full facts in the paper at her sentencing. She was a woman in a extreme position of power and very hard for women to get into that role. She told us all convincingly she was set up by her profession as she was expecting her fourth child and fourth lot of maternity leave. I stood by her and I had heard her side and pleads of a set up. Until she pleaded guilty in the Dock.

I think it was her wording "I'll never believe this of her unless Lucy admits she killed them." The absolute certainty she spoke with wound me up too, especially as she didn't attend court so didn't listen to all the evidence.

It's extremely difficult to believe that someone you know and care about is capable of true evil. I know this all too well as a family friend was convincted of possessing indecent images of children and I would never have suspected him in a million years. It shocked me to the core but you have to listen to the evidence. Her friend just came across as having her fingers in her ears and a bit dim really.

@Mooshamoo I agree, they absolutely should be. Insulin should not be so readily available. And access should be traceable. It's really poor how easily people (presumably patients and parents too if on the ward unsupervised) can access dangerous drugs.

If may cost money, but that's money well spent in my mind.

Yes Flipflap, I reported her post.
I agree with the sentiment but am utterly sick of disablism on here.
Lucy Letby is a lot of things but psychotic isn't thought to be one of them, and if she isn't mentally ill, she should be denied a gentle ride at Ashworth or Rampton and be sent to Prison.

I haven't taken much notice or interest in the case until today. I'm bedridden with a flare of an ongoing illness today, so had lots of time to read up on the case.

I wonder what evidence the jury have seen that hasn't been made public because nothing I've seen makes me think that she is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. I've strayed onto the Reddit forum Science Lucy Letby as well as this blog about the science behind the deaths... as well as reading mainly the Guardian coverage of the trial and tbh, I'm not convinced. It all seems very circumstantial and there's no motive, no smoking gun...

... I know that it's contentious because it's babies and their vulnerability and the vulnerability of their families is in the forefront of our minds, but the autopsies seemed to show that the babies died of natural causes. And the department as a whole seemed to be failing the babies. There seem to have been other deaths in 2015/16 which aren't attributed to Letby so... what's that about?

Somethings sitting wrongly with me about all of this.

I think you’re very naive about the reputation of the GMC amongst doctors. At least some of the doctors involved are BAME, no way in hell would I make myself vulnerable to the GMC in their position. It’s an institution that’s been found to be institutionally racist by the courts. The suicide statistics for doctors under investigation are shocking. The threat of a GMC referral is something taken incredibly seriously by most doctors. Completely different scale of case but just look at how Dr Arora was treated recently. The GMC is a very easy way for corrupt trusts to keep doctors in line.

I’m offering an opinion, same as you.

What exactly would the GMC have done to any one of them for expressing a legitimate concern backed up by six others with the same concern, all of them consultants? Suspend them? For what exactly? Whistleblowers are protected by law.