Page 16 | The immigrant barge - what’s actually wrong with using it?

NC523 · 2023-08-08T17:16:44+00:00

Educate me! I looked at pics from the inside, it all looks very much like standard student accommodation to me, including common rooms/relaxation areas/health support on board. Residents can go on & off the boat, it’s passed fire etc safety and been used to house people in lots of other situations. I don’t understand why people think it’s not ok. Can anyone explain please?

LauraNorda · 09/08/2023 17:46

0021andabit · 09/08/2023 17:37

I assume you weren’t fleeing war or famine or persecution. I assume your house and your children’s school hadn’t been bombed to rubble. I assume you hadn’t been tortured.

The system for economic migration is separate to the asylum system.

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@0021andabit If that had happened to me, I would be bringing my wife and kids with me. Why have so many fit and healthy young men left their wife and kids behind in such a dangerous place and homeless to boot?

As I said previously, such people would be happy in the first safe country, ignoring the question of why said young, fit and healthy men are not willing to stand and fight for their own way of life in their own country.

LauraNorda · 09/08/2023 17:47

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2023 17:44

Can you show that the vast majority of asylum seekers are, as you claim, in fact economic migrants?

The data suggests otherwise.

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@noblegiraffe

Can you show me the data to which you are referring?

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2023 17:52

The government statistics, Laura, that I assumed you'd be familiar with?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-march-2023/how-many-people-do-we-grant-protection-to

"Just under three-quarters (74%) of the initial decisions in the year ending March 2023 were grants of refugee status, humanitarian protection or alternative forms of leave."

And you have been referring to Albanians and Indians claiming asylum but only 5% of their asylum claims were granted, so presumably the govt does actually reject the asylum claims of people considered to be economic migrants. Yet it still accepted nearly three quarters of applications.

So where is your counter-evidence that the vast majority of asylum seekers are actually economic migrants?

How many people do we grant protection to?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-march-2023/how-many-people-do-we-grant-protection-to

Noizettely · 09/08/2023 17:55

Clavinova · 09/08/2023 17:40

Alexandra2001
Look, this is an awful situation BUT we chose to leave the EU, withdraw ourselves from influence with our closest neighbours, i for one could see in 2015/16 what would happen if we left, based on what we'd already seen with the camps in and around Calais in the 2000s but we came to agreements with the EU/France and that flow of economic migrants slowed, its now come back with a vengeance, we've only ourselves to blame.

It's come back with a vengeance in the EU as well though;

Last year the European Union, Switzerland and Norway recorded the largest number of asylum applications in seven years, with countries receiving nearly 1 million requests for international protection.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-1-million-asylum-seeker-application-2022-analysis/

Nothing to do with bombing Libya.

Mass migration is happening because the internet enables young people across the world to experience the net benefits of western society and they want to have part of that. To compound matters in equal measure the west has never really allowed emerging nations to prosper through technical progress and trade. We have never protected natural resources for the people of those nations that have them.

If we gave know-how away we would not be as rich, but poorer countries would be richer than they are. I’m sure people would prefer to stay in their own countries if they were in a significantly better position financially because money provides opportunity.

Clavinova · 09/08/2023 17:58

Alexandra2001
Never known a student to be forced to share accommodation, in fact in all the Uni's my DD looked at, it wasn't even an option, its a recipe for disaster!

We looked at St Andrews and Durham - both had shared rooms (luck of the draw I think).

0021andabit · 09/08/2023 17:59

LauraNorda · 09/08/2023 17:46

@0021andabit If that had happened to me, I would be bringing my wife and kids with me. Why have so many fit and healthy young men left their wife and kids behind in such a dangerous place and homeless to boot?

As I said previously, such people would be happy in the first safe country, ignoring the question of why said young, fit and healthy men are not willing to stand and fight for their own way of life in their own country.

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It is a dangerous (and expensive) journey - there are many, many horror stories about women and children being raped by people smugglers, and of women and children are less likely to survive the journey should a small boat capsize, so, many men make the decision to come ahead and apply for asylum, so that the rest of their families can follow in a much safer way. I think you were to read the testimonies of actual refugees and asylum seekers you wouldn't be blithely saying you would 'stay and fight' if you'd been tortured by a regime that commits war crimes.

Barbadossunset · 09/08/2023 18:00

The answer in my view lies in culture change that values a persons contribution to society more than their material possessions.

jgw1 how will this change be brought about?

Noizettely · 09/08/2023 18:10

@Barbadossunset
My view, posted above, comes from a slightly different place. If the west profited less from technological advancement and gave it away - essentially uncoupling ourselves from the view that individual material wealth is both success and security - there would be real fair trade and investment in global humanity. We absolutely do have the answer here. The power is in our hands to do that.

I find it perverse that a single company that really has one main product in its inventory can be worth the same as the entire GDP of Africa.

LauraNorda · 09/08/2023 18:17

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2023 17:52

The government statistics, Laura, that I assumed you'd be familiar with?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-march-2023/how-many-people-do-we-grant-protection-to

"Just under three-quarters (74%) of the initial decisions in the year ending March 2023 were grants of refugee status, humanitarian protection or alternative forms of leave."

And you have been referring to Albanians and Indians claiming asylum but only 5% of their asylum claims were granted, so presumably the govt does actually reject the asylum claims of people considered to be economic migrants. Yet it still accepted nearly three quarters of applications.

So where is your counter-evidence that the vast majority of asylum seekers are actually economic migrants?

@noblegiraffe

I haven't read in-depth your source or mine but mine (also government) suggests that 18% of immigrants are asylum seekers or refugees.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

lollipoprainbow · 09/08/2023 18:23

mumda · 08/08/2023 20:58

There's no medical appointments locally. There's certainly very limited NHS dentist provision.
The electrical grid is under stress. The sewerage system cannot cope. Rentals are massively expensive and huge numbers applying for each one. Many people housed in substandard accommodation within areas of high pollution.

Where will everyone be housed? What jobs will they do?

They're all lawyers, doctors and teachers apparently 🙄

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2023 18:24

I haven't read in-depth your source or mine but mine (also government) suggests that 18% of immigrants are asylum seekers or refugees.

You said "First and foremost, they are mostly not refugees. They are economic migrants. I would bet that most actual refugees would be happy to stop in the first safe country they arrive in."

Do you understand that your figure about immigrants is saying that the vast majority of immigration is legal? That they are coming here on visas (not dinghies) to work or study?

I mean, this is a fairly basic error.

lollipoprainbow · 09/08/2023 18:25

midsomermurderess · 08/08/2023 21:20

GPs, dentists, schools, hospitals, housing are at bursting point because of over a decade of brutal government underfunding, not because of asylum seekers.

True but how do you think it helps to have all these extra people needing services ??

lollipoprainbow · 09/08/2023 18:25

RosaGallica · 08/08/2023 21:22

I think that some people need to take a good look hard look at the reality of life for the average working person with no family support or inheritance now befpre complaining about the quality of accommodation we donate to people from elsewhere. Why is there always so much hand wringing about the quality of life offered to strange men from abroad when that offered to women from here is so much worse? I se headlines a a bout how hard Afghans have it because they are still in temporary accommodation. Well guess what, people who have lived here and worked all their lives get nothing more.

If the middle classes want more of us to be more sympathetic to every one else across the world, especially more men, then there needs to be a bit more sympathy to the reality here first. Where work and education do not earn you a decent living and haven’t done since house prices first went up massively in the 2000s, many of us were forced into shit private rent for life for the crime of having poor parents, and we were told that we didn’t matter and to suck it up.

👏👏👏

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 18:26

lollipoprainbow · 09/08/2023 18:25

True but how do you think it helps to have all these extra people needing services ??

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but a lot of refugees will be the people who provide these services...

RafaistheKingofClay · 09/08/2023 18:30

LauraNorda · 09/08/2023 18:17

@noblegiraffe

I haven't read in-depth your source or mine but mine (also government) suggests that 18% of immigrants are asylum seekers or refugees.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

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Aren’t we talking about people who enter ‘illegally’ on small boats and claim asylum on this thread. The 18% includes all immigration. That includes people on visas entering the country to fill the shortage skills list. I don’t think we’re in any danger of putting them on an overcrowded death trap barge.

Are you actually saying you want no economic migrants whatsoever and we should just go without staff in shortage areas?

woodhill · 09/08/2023 18:35

If we didn't have so many people coming to the UK in the first place perhaps we wouldn't need all these extra staff

They need to use services such as the NHS

AgnesX · 09/08/2023 18:35

LauraNorda · 08/08/2023 18:25

But surely even this barge is better than the conditions they have left behind in war-torn France?

Why should they expect 5 star hotels?

All the other refugee camps in the world you see on the news are just tents, even when there is snow on the ground.

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All the European countries have to take refugees so "war torn" France is somewhat disgenuous. That barge is no better than a prison and an overcrowded one at that. The refugee camps in other countries aren't right either.

5 star hotels? Have you really bought into that badly written guff in the Mail or Sun?

lollipoprainbow · 09/08/2023 18:40

@Nevermay they build houses and hospitals and schools ?? Wow who knew.

RogersOrganismicProcess · 09/08/2023 18:51

At a time when services etc. are expected to become more trauma aware, it seems cruelly ironic that our own government see fit to house traumatised people (many of whom experienced the trauma of perilous sea crossings on overcrowded boats) on an overcrowded boat, on the sea! What sick mind thought that was acceptable?

inamarina · 09/08/2023 18:57

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 18:26

but a lot of refugees will be the people who provide these services...

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But how do you know that many of those refugees will be able to provide those services, i.e. are trained GPs, dentists, teachers, hospital staff?

I feel like while some people see asylum seekers as (potential) criminals, others just assume they’re all highly qualified professionals. Do we know what’s actually true?

And then there is the issue of verifying qualifications obtained in other countries - are they recognised in the UK?

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 18:58

lollipoprainbow · 09/08/2023 18:40

@Nevermay they build houses and hospitals and schools ?? Wow who knew.

seriously? who do you think builds and staffs these things? Refugees play a huge role in these things. In proportion to the size of their populations, a far greater role than UK nationals.

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 19:01

inamarina · 09/08/2023 18:57

But how do you know that many of those refugees will be able to provide those services, i.e. are trained GPs, dentists, teachers, hospital staff?

I feel like while some people see asylum seekers as (potential) criminals, others just assume they’re all highly qualified professionals. Do we know what’s actually true?

And then there is the issue of verifying qualifications obtained in other countries - are they recognised in the UK?

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They are a true cross section of society, of course they are. War does not differentiate between different classes of degree or other qualifications! And yes, we do recognise many qualifications from other countries, and do so thousands of times a day in all walks of life, and if someone can't prove their qualifications, their are conversation courses available, and they simply retake their exams in English here.

calmcoco · 09/08/2023 19:05

Wishitsnows · 08/08/2023 18:26

I can’t see that starting a fire would be an issue any more that it would be on a luxury cruise ship where you would be out at sea and couldn’t just walk off

The Fire Service disagree, but I'm sure you know best

calmcoco · 09/08/2023 19:08

inamarina · 09/08/2023 18:57

But how do you know that many of those refugees will be able to provide those services, i.e. are trained GPs, dentists, teachers, hospital staff?

I feel like while some people see asylum seekers as (potential) criminals, others just assume they’re all highly qualified professionals. Do we know what’s actually true?

And then there is the issue of verifying qualifications obtained in other countries - are they recognised in the UK?

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Qualifications are internationally understood and often recognised, yes.

Some will be qualified and some will not be qualified, most will be good people and some will be wrong 'uns, just like any group of people.

Noicant · 09/08/2023 19:08

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 14:16

This barge is a concentration camp. I only looked up the definition because another poster was scorning the suggestion, and I found it full fills the definition exactly.

The British invented concentration camps - something we would prefer everyone else in the world to forget.

Hands up anyone happy today to be supporting a policy of placing vulnerable minorities in concentration camos in our country today

They are allowed to leave, theres a bus service. Honestly this is so offensive to people who have actually been in concentration camps.