Anyone got a Scout or Explorer going to WSJ in South Korea?

[lazylittlelucy]

Just thought I'd start a thread for parents if there are any on here.
My 17yo DD is going as an Explorer and is getting excited now.
Anyone else?

Link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-66425588

Article also worth a read.

Whilst I was looking up all this stuff this morning in the South Korean English language press, I came across this article about the country's largest non wartime in 1995 in which 500 people died in a department store. I have to say I found it fascinating in terms of where the UK and Europe generally are/were in comparison even for an event 28 years ago.
https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230809000545
[Korean History] Sampoong: A deep national wound
1995 collapse of Sampoong Department Store still holds the title of the biggest 'peacetime' death toll in S. Korea

I'm posting it because I think, whilst we are on the subject of cultural differences and corruption, it's relevant as background. And I think that the publishing of that article today isn't a coincidence either.

It details how the building wasn't built to regulations and various heads of the company had received bribes from the builders. They had fitted cooling towers on the roof earlier in the year which added to the weight problem - and following complaints over noise from neighbors decided to drag them to the other end of the build rather than move them properly using cranes. This resulted in catastrophically weakening the building.

On the day of the collapse lots of cracks in the walls were seen and the roof of the fifth floor was seen to be caving in. A decision was made to close the fifth floor and switch off the cooling system but not evacuate.

A board meeting was convened at 3pm.

At 5pm the fourth floor ceiling began to cave too. Again a refusal to evacuate was decided upon but the fourth floor was closed.

Only at 5.50pm was action taken and the evacuation order given - two minutes before the collapse.

The only part of the building that didn't collapse was the bit where the board were still meeting. They survived. Half the dead were staff.

The aftermath exposed the fact that the country didn't have an disaster plan - there was no triage protocol for transfer of the injured to hospitals; something that even in 1995 in the UK would have been utterly unthinkable. Maybe that's was result of more disasters and terrorism in UK but none the less it was definitely in our mindset and that of most other western countries. You have to ask why the South Koreans were so blind to the possibility given disasters elsewhere in the world?

Notably and perhaps symbolically, the current President lived in the luxury building that replaced the department store and commuted daily from it at the start of his presidency. The building of this was controversial in its own right as there were calls for a memorial on the site but it was felt the land was too valuable for that by politicians.

I think Jamboree definitely has echoes of some of the factors that lead to the disaster and it's aftermath and it's very curious that the South Korean newspaper has decided to run such an article today when there is no significant anniversary nor any other apparent reason to do so. Apart from there's an incoming typhoon and an event that's lead to a national embarassment this week. Someone seems to be deliberately trying to make a point and perhaps draw parallels that there is a massive cultural problem that perhaps, hasn't gone away.

The corruption, the lack of disaster planning, the ongoing bureaucracy and the attempt to carry on and ignore the problem well beyond any sane level when it was obvious a crisis was in full swing are themes that have definitely shown themselves this week with Jamboree.

I suspect, from that article, that there is something of a national debate over all these things absolutely raging internally within South Korea that's we've no idea about in the UK due to distance, language and cultural barriers.

I have to say, I hope South Korea do cope with the incoming weather - I stress here I think the Scouts will all be absolutely fine - though maybe wet. If nothing else that bloody manual probably says, "It is your national duty to save Scouts before any South Korean citizen including yourself and K-POP icons to save us from National Embarassment and admitting there is a problem".

In terms of learning about cultural differences, it's certainly been eye opening reading about some of this stuff from afar.

The Korean press certainly makes for interesting reading.

I am now just going to say that today is Ceilidh day and there are so many takers the Scottish contingents are running multiple events in a row.

There's also a little clip of Dwayne Fields on the UK pages that is inspiring.

Am loving all these news articles you have found @RedToothBrush
They make for very interesting reading and insight into how the Jamboree at Saemangeum was doomed from the outset.
Though I am genuinely perplexed as to how WOSM and all the international contingent leaders didn't get involved sooner. I prob just don't know enough about scouting politics 🤔

I beg to differ. Seoul is a huge, sprawling city and there are so many museums, hikes, galleries, restaurants and other activities one can do. Great street food and shopping with a bustling nightlife. Have you actually been yourself...? There are plenty of people who would disagree, although I'd argue that young visitors would get more out of it (up to age 35). It's a place which is truly 24/7 unlike London. With all that said, 2.5 weeks is too long.

Also temples and palaces (not sure how I forgot those)

I think there needs to be an answer to the question over how much consideration was given to factors like cultural differences over emergency planning, how responsive a country is culturally to challenges and how bad corruption is from World Scouting.

In terms of corruption (and we are certainly not immune nor innocent of it in the UK - there are plenty of examples of it), there is a corruption perceptions index which compares nations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

The UK comes in at joint 18th on it. (Down 7 places in the last 2022 report). We scored 77 (out of 99). South Korea doesn't actually do too badly coming in at 31st (score of 63). Poland clocks in at 45th with a score of 55.
So there isn't a great big red klaxon sounding here from the look of that. So even though the Scouts clearly have been really stung here, I'm less inclined to think it was something that was obviously something that they should have been tuned into. (In future I think they will have to be).

However there is a fare amount of awareness on cultural issues relating to disaster planning and I think that given the Scouts motto is 'Be Prepared' and the event is about cultural differences between nations, I think its a massive oversight for this seemingly not being higher on the radar for WOSM. Theres tonnes about this available and its well known about. Its well recognised that different countries have different attitudes to how much government is responsible for this and its well recognised that there are issues with heirachical structures and no one having the authority/willingness to pull the plug at the appropriate time or a deference to authority.

More than anything though no one asked, 'What happens if things don't go to plan?' or 'Who is responsible if I have a problem?' Its a really basic fundamental one. Never mind, 'What happens if there is a minor incident and I have to get people on and offsite quickly?'

In the wake of the major crush in Seoul last year, there are some worrying questions about the site that World Scouting don't appear to have asked from the information that has been shared about the Opening Ceremony (the Closing Ceremony's initial relocation to a stadium seems to suggest to me, that safety at the sight not being up to scratch was noted and something said - the comments I saw about that came from concerns from the German contigent; the Germans who decided to stick it out onsite till the end).

One access road, hospitals 15mins by air and 45mins by road, a recent incident with lack of security in a crowd situation, lack of oversight of the number of medics on site, possible high temperatures and lack of shelter are again basic considerations we would have to come up with considerations for in terms of a festival event with 40,000 people in the UK. Nor would I generally expect things to be that low in Western Europe (and I've been to a lot of events around the world). Standards shouldn't be lower than the expectations of any nation attending for World Scouting events

The current Minister of the Interior who is overall issues (and mentioned on this thread) in relation has been in office since May last year. He was sued by the fire union in November order to open an investigation into him over the Seoul crush because the government line was that it wasn't an organised event therefore it wasn't clear who was responsible for public safety for the incident. A total abdication of responsibility.

What we've seen with Jamboree, and its definitely still playing out with the Closing Ceremony Fiasco, is the fact you can't organise by committee and you need a number of individuals who have clear responsibility for certain things. I think thats a really big thing for World Scouting to get their head around - they really shouldn't be lacking in knowledge about how this is a problem from doing even small scale events. There needs to be clear lines of responsibility AND accountability.

Don't get me wrong, I think we've had some dreadful incidents in the UK: Hillsborough and terrorist incidents - but thats precisely why any major event here has so much consideration given to 'what happens if it goes wrong' as part of their planning even if you do something relatively small. I'm just not seeing any of that with Jamboree.

I talked upthread about it being well known in aviation about some Asian cultures having a problem with a tendency to automatically say “yes” to their superiors rather than challenge them or say “I don’t know” or “no,” which can result in making a crisis a lot worse. The UN and WorldBank have done extensive stuff on this too. So why hasn't this been on the radar of World Scouting?

UK Scouting's decision to look not just at the current problems on Friday but also take into account the weather forecast is really telling on this score as is the statement by the WOSM saying it wanted to pull the plug too. It was very apparent rain was going to stop play at some point by Friday night and the time of the UK's decision/WOSM statement. UK Scouting had enough foresight to see the issue. And they took full responsibility then and there. Why didn't others?

What I find fascinating is the reaction of other nations and who bought the Korean position and pressure and made a real point of saying they were staying. Now they may have had much better onsite provision / lower expectations than the UK but the inability to look at the weather forecast is the one I really can't shake. The inability of the site to cope with even a drop more water was pretty obvious. Maybe we are just more used to having to adapt to rain in the UK and know a really shitty forecast when we see one! (I have big questions for Ireland on that mind). I dunno.

But yeah, I don't think hindsight being a wonderful thing is really something that can be used as an excuse. There are some pretty glaring questions that either were never asked at all or the Korean authorities failed to answer and World Scouting didn't follow that up enough. There are HUGE gaps in the planning of this.

Maybe other nations really couldn't afford to leave and take the Scouts somewhere else? I can imagine that quite a few countries' groups had no access to the extra funds and since the Korean authorities said "all's under control, we're doing A, B, and C" , they may have been advised to stay.

And that's where scouting associations should be taking the issue to World Scouting or challenging by speaking up publicly.

It wasn't as if they'd be alone given UK scouts.

Safety shouldn't be compromised due to costs. That's against scouting principles

Indeed we had a full on PR stunt with some other nations making a point of how they were staying.

Safety shouldn't be compromised due to costs. That's against scouting principles

Exactly! I have a Cub and an Explorer myself (not in SK) and one of the reasons I have never had any issues to send my kids on Scouts camps and activities is that safety has always been taken into consideration and no one has been taking chances with this. And seeing how the UK Scouting authorities have behaved during the Jamboree (according to what I can see so far) and how they have been doing their best to look after the young people, I am planning to continue to support the Scouts (I don't need to mention that my kids love being part of the Scouts, they feel they learn and get so much out of their Scouting experience)

In addition to what @curiousllama has said, they are setting up some of the things that the YP would have enjoyed on site - so the e-mail I saw today talked of them setting up Cultural Day in Seoul, for example, and I know many enjoyed the ceilidhs that happened yesterday. It isn't all about 'sights' to see, it is about experiences as well.

Some videos from Scouts at the site (before they left):

s

Sorry - think I may have repeated one there...

Talk of the US parents suing:

Thanks for all those videos @AnotherThingToThinkAbout

It struck me over and over again how positive the Young People were, and how - despite the widely mentioned hygiene and overall lack of shade, and distances they have to travel in the extreme heat, ALL the interviewees were looking for the positives.
Well done to all of the Scout (and Leader) interviewed.

Yes, I agree. They were an inspiring group of people to listen to and you could hear how hard they tried to stay positive and how much they wanted to meet people from other places, too.

Yes, those videos were great. It looked absolutely scorching there at the campsite, and you could get a sense of how little shade there was. But even so, they seemed to be having a good time and all expressed that their highlight was meeting and talking to scouts from different cultures. Lovely 😍

Today's South Korean news round up.

The scouts are doing indoor activities after the Korean authorities changed the programme again:
https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230810000513

There's an article on all the efforts to ensure halal food for the Muslim Scouts. I have to confess although they say they are doing it, it also sounds like it wasn't perfect straight away and admitting that South Korea was not an halal friendly place:
https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230810000526

"The initial plan was to cook up halal meals for Muslim Scouts and provide separate halal catering services in the official Jamboree camping area. However, now that the Scout members have dispersed throughout the nation, it's difficult to provide proper halal services to the Scouts," Lee said.
To address this, Wonkwang University has been established as a safe hub for Muslim Jamboree Scouts, Lee added.
"We've restocked all the cooking utensils in the university kitchen with brand-new ones, as all halal food needs to be prepared using utensils that have never touched pork before," Lee said.
"We are also offering bidet-installed toilets ... (and) we've set up shower curtains in the ladies' shower rooms (for privacy). We are additionally bringing in halal food from a certified halal restaurant in Gwangju, South Jeolla Province, for meals, since there are no such restaurants in the vicinity," Lee said.

More PR as they Koreans give sweets and ice-cream to Swedish scouts:
^m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230810000581^

and as religious groups host cultural events:
^m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230810000539^

However the political fall out carries on with calls to sack ministers - an admission that legal action may happen if they don't apologise (loving the idea that an apology will stop legal action):
^m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230809000699^

South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol is facing increasing calls to dismiss key ministers, including Gender Equality and Family Minister Kim Hyun-sook, over the mishandling of the World Scout Jamboree at Saemangeum, on reclaimed land in Buan, North Jeolla Province.
^^
Lawmakers in South Korea are urging that ministers responsible for the event be removed from their posts once the jamboree which carries a price tag of 117 billion won ($88.7 million) ends as planned Saturday.
^^
"Primarily, an international apology should come first and foremost, then a proper state inspection and the sacking of ministers who bear the biggest liabilities should follow," Rep. Ahn Cheol-soo of the ruling People Power Party said in a radio interview Wednesday.
^^
"(The whole of) South Korea is to blame," Ahn said.
^^
Ahn added that without an apology or Steen internal recourse by the government, Korea could face legal action by parents of Scouts who were dissatisfied with this year's global event, which is typically held every four years.

And what looks like a clear case of a preliminary audit picking up the site problems in 2022 but the government riding rough shot over the criticism:
Family Minister Kim's remarks sparked further public uproar. When asked whether the botched jamboree management could affect Korea's bid to host the 2030 World Expo in Busan, Kim said Tuesday that adjustments made to relocate from the Saemangeum jamboree site are "proof that Korea is capable of risk management" when dealing with a catastrophic event.
Kim was also under fire for Sunday's remarks for describing a case involving a Thai man in a women's shower facility at the jamboree as being "minor," amid sex crime allegations. On Wednesday morning, the Family Ministry canceled a briefing from Kim just 10 minutes before the scheduled time, without elaborating as to the reason why.
The recent comments showed a contrast from Kim's remarks during a parliamentary audit in 2022 that the jamboree site is "all set for countermeasures" when asked about the delayed installation of shower booths, restrooms, drinking water fountains and water drainage infrastructure.

The last I saw about the Thai incident was that the Minister was down playing it until it became apparent it was now subject to a police inquiry. There were references to a victim in the last reporting I saw rather than it being a misunderstanding.

Some of the reports about the still planned K-pop concert are somewhat 'interesting'. No word on whether the Koreans have got back to the Poles yet either
m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=356785
The Jamboree participants are scheduled to attend a K-pop concert at Seoul World Cup Stadium at 7 p.m. Friday after the closing ceremony being held at the same place.
^^
The government and the organizing committee are still mulling ways to transfer tens of thousands of Scouts, who were scattered across the country, to the concert venue, as severe traffic congestions in the capital are expected throughout the day.
^^
The Seoul Metropolitan Police Agency said entry of vehicles to roads around the stadium will be controlled from 2 p.m. until the end of the concert on Friday "to relieve traffic congestion and secure sufficient parking spaces."

"We expect the concert to finish at around 11pm" a police officer said noting that the agency will deploy some 300 traffic police officers and install standing signboards to minimise confusion.

And more details of Korean unhappiness and details about how the evacuation hasn't been without problems (potential safeguarding issues)
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=356722

Many Scouts who left the 25th World Scout Jamboree campsite in Saemangeum, North Jeolla Province, due to a typhoon forecast, found themselves in university dormitories mostly in Seoul and the surrounding capital region as educational institutions accepted the government's request to offer accommodations.

But their arrival came as a surprise to some students at the universities who were asked to be hospitable without any prior notice.

"We see three to four people arriving in a dorm that is designed for two people. Shower rooms and bathrooms are a disaster," a University of Seoul student was quoted as saying by a local newspaper. "The university accepted the Scouts without consideration of the school's capacity."

While more than 3,000 Scouts are scattered among 12 university dormitories in the capital, the University of Seoul is hosting around 500 of them.

Myongji University offered male Scouts rooms at a female dormitory building by mistake, enraging female students.

"I have no problem with offering help, but the school also must respect existing students," one student was quoted as saying by another newspaper.

The biggest complaint was about food as the universities prioritized school cafeterias to serve the Scouts first.

"University cafeterias are very important infrastructure and many students rely on them for food. If it closes down so suddenly, how can students survive?" another University of Seoul student wrote on the university's online platform.

University of Seoul President Won Yong-kul sent a text message to all students asking for their understanding.

"With all eyes on the World Scout Jamboree, the help was needed to finish the event safely. The University of Seoul responded to the call for help and this can mean inconveniences for some students. We would like to ask for your understanding."

Yet, his message was criticized for being superficial.

"The school only wants us to endure and stay quiet," one student was quoted as saying.

I think there was an article yesterday which mentioned that the university staff were unhappy because the government had dumped on them and told them to get on with it, so it isn't just the students who were unhappy with how it was handled.

Sorry I think a few of my links have gone cock eyed.

Most important is this one about the calls for government officials to be sacked:
apology will stop legal action):
^m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230809000699^

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/09/worst-nightmare-south-korea-mulls-disastrous-scout-jamboree

Concerns were raised even before the event began.

Last August, Lee Won-taeg, a Democratic party politician, highlighted a lack of preparation for showers, toilets, and water supply. In October, he cited a lack of contingency plans for extreme weather, insect control, and infections. One of the organisers, Seoul’s gender equality minister Kim Hyun-sook, responded that planning was going “without a hitch”.

Lee replied: “Wait and see. History will hold you accountable for this, minister.”

WOW!

South Korea has experienced a number of safety disasters in recent years.

In 2014, the Sewol ferry sank off the coast after being overloaded with cargo and then making a sharp turn, killing more than 300 people, most of them children. Last year, a crowd crush in central Seoul killed more than 150 young people during what was supposed to be a night of Halloween festivities, which was blamed on factors including a lack of crowd control and a botched emergency response.
^^
While it is difficult to find common factors between these three events, Sangchin Chun, professor of sociology at Sogang University, said that the organisation of the Korean government, which is responsible for disaster management, is a problem.
^^
He acknowledged that management systems had improved in the 21st century compared with the past, where “making the impossible possible” was characterised by putting safety aside, but said that there was still a traditional attitude where the feelings and image of “authoritarian leaders” sometimes took precedence over other considerations. Korean administration was still often run with a top-down hierarchy, where expressing disagreement met resistance.“The reality seems to be that such systems can be disregarded and undermined based on the judgment, orders, or inclinations of such leaders. In organisations where regulations are important and the system is robust, the expertise of its members is emphasised. In contrast, where regulations are overlooked and the system is weak, members’ loyalty is valued,” Chun said.

Reports from DD that the storm has hit Seoul. It has been raining all day and they are not allowed out of their hotel after 7pm. Haven't seen or heard anything about the typhoon looming for Saemangeum, but it must have hit and caused chaos on the campsite.

So the government is defending Ministers:

https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=356782

Ruling bloc officials dismissed calls Thursday to replace Gender Equality Minister Kim Hyun-sook over the mismanagement of the 25th World Scout Jamboree, saying the responsibility should fall on the local government that hosted the event.

Some critics, including opposition politicians, have claimed Kim should be fired for poorly handling the event, which drew widespread criticism for lacking the facilities and equipment needed to host tens of thousands of Scouts and volunteers from around the world during a scorching heat wave last week.

Ruling bloc officials, however, said the provincial government of North Jeolla, where the jamboree campground was located, was wholly responsible for organizing the event, with the central government providing all the additional funds it requested.

But this hasn't gone down well at all with the Korean Times.

Editorial piece for the newspaper:
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=356777
Authorities must be held accountable for failed event

It's dumbfounding to hear the media's seemingly hasty post-mortems reveal the causes of this fiasco one after another. Its hosts brought the event to Korea from the start to turn the vast reclaimed mud flats into an industrial space rather than putting on the Jamboree for the Scouts.

Nothing showed this better than the fact that the campsite was the most recently reclaimed space, still salty and undrained. According to reports, localities plan to build an airport there by 2029. In short, they provided young visitors with the least suitable lots for camping. Poor facilities, sanitation and food quickly became the talk of the global village.

Many Koreans say they cannot hold their heads up because all this occurred in modern Korea, the world's 13th-largest economy and a cultural and technological powerhouse. We don't know why the people should feel ashamed and sorry for the disaster caused by greedy, incompetent and irresponsible officials.

The failed Jamboree showed the bare face of Korea's public service. As always, however, officials are adding insult to injury. As do elected and appointed officials, the central and local governments are pointing fingers at each other. If past experiences are any guide, President Yoon Suk Yeol will order the punishment of a dozen lower-echelon officials and wrap it all up in a month or two. But this national disgrace must not end so.

A study on the Saemangeum Jamboree anticipated these problems seven years ago. There will be audits and parliamentary hearings.

We propose two things.

First, make a white paper on this jamboree fiasco to reflect on the nation's public service systems and practices and to prevent similar disasters.

Second, give back some 6.5 million won ($5,000) in participating fees to 43,000 scouts. The government could find the money from its budget or 2.6 trillion won spending for the entire Saemangeum project.

That will not be too expensive to reaffirm one lesson ― never let adults' greed trample on youngsters' dreams.

WOW!

it's not direclty relevant but I've just been reading up about the Sewol ferry disaster (2014) mentioned in the Guardian article. It's horrific. It would be hard to imagine such a chain of events happening in the UK - certainly there were cultural factors at play there which have been repeated here.

Anyway hopefully the kids stay dry and have a good trip back to the UK with good stories to tell.

It's one mess after another isn't it. Really feel for everyone involved.

A czech journalist is in Korea reporting on Jamboree.

He posted this about 5hrs ago

Jakub Lucky AT JakubLuckyCZ
Tropická bouře Khanun dnes prošla okolo Soulu, vydatně pršelo, ale to je vše. Nyní už je spíš klid. Na tábořišti Jamboree v SaeManGemu ale podle všeho docela stojí voda. Evakuace asi byl dobrý nápad…

This is the translated version:
Tropical Storm Khanun passed by Seoul today, it rained heavily, but that's about it. It's more calm now. However, the water seems to be quite stagnant at the Jamboree campsite in SaeManGem. Evacuation was probably a good idea...