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Ukraine Invasion: Part 42

986 replies

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:32

Setting this up early given the speed of current events

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OP posts:
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145
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 25/06/2023 22:14

ty!

This thread has become very special to me - it's something I can do to help Ukraine, help people understand what's going on by passing on info.

NowYouSee · 25/06/2023 22:23

i don’t have much to contribute right now but am very much enjoying the analysis on this thread.

MMBaranova · 25/06/2023 22:25

I am not at all sure what to make of what has happened in Russia over the last 2-3 days. Too early to tell and too murky. I don’t think there is a grand conspiracy, but there are things we clearly don’t know. It may partly be that Prigozhin’s brain works in ways I can’t understand, but I start from the position that he is vain and mercenary (in a range of ways).

Three things I note:

The Wagner column(s) shot down regular helicopters and a plane. Yet there’s a ‘shrug, no harm done’ attitude in the aftermath.

We know who stayed in Moscow, who fled and who just wasn’t seen during the crisis. This will have repercussions.

Lukashenko. What did he actually do? He’s not known for interventions like this. He’s a balancer. ‘Of course we are fraternal nations and need to be close… but we won’t really merge… yet’ is often his way. That and ‘yes, sure invade our neighbour from my country but my forces won’t be involved’ is another. Giving Prigozhin a safe haven in Minsk? Odd. That doesn’t feel terribly life extending.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 25/06/2023 22:32

A huge question to me is "will Prigozhin's loyal Wagnerites travel to Belorus too".

If they do, he'll have more weight to throw around. If they don't he'll be working on something. I can't believe yesterday was all a set-up even if there are some extremely big question marks, and you'd think that if someone tries to set up a coup in Russia, they either have to keep working on it or expect a very short life.

MissConductUS · 25/06/2023 22:39

I agree. There is no "water under the bridge" when you attempt to bring down a dictator.

I don't think they'll allow large numbers of Wagner troops to move to Belarus. That's why they're trying to get them to sign contracts with the MoD.

minsmum · 25/06/2023 22:51

The thing we have learned is no one is prepared to die for Putin, I now understand the long table

MMBaranova · 25/06/2023 22:54

Wagner online channels: one big one has vanished, the tone of another has changed.

Aleksey Dyumin being talked up.

The coup plotters being talked down (that’s Shoigu and Gerasimov).

It’s not clear whether it’s just someone with a vivid imagination and the stamina to churn out ‘stuff’ is generating everything.

Tuba437 · 25/06/2023 22:54

Which in turn poo poos most of his nuclear rhetoric. If they are not willing to die for him they certainly will not be willing to bring in nuclear Armageddon.

SunshinyDay1 · 25/06/2023 23:02

Something very fishy gone on, fsb want straight to his money apparently I cash in vans...

I wunder if they also got his family?? Threatened them??..

SunshinyDay1 · 25/06/2023 23:02

Or something else going on he's made pact elsewhere

blueshoes · 25/06/2023 23:11

SunshinyDay1 · 25/06/2023 23:02

Something very fishy gone on, fsb want straight to his money apparently I cash in vans...

I wunder if they also got his family?? Threatened them??..

Prigozhin's mother lives in St Petersburg. It would be crazy if she did not go into hiding first, knowing how the FSB work.

As an aside, Prigozhin famously gave his mother's gas bill which had an address in St Petersburg in order to clear money laundering checks by a UK law firm to act for him in 2021 in suing Bellingcat for libel in the UK courts. The case was later struck out and the law firm dropped him as a client in 2022.

TheABC · 25/06/2023 23:58

We are missing a massive piece of information regarding this protest/baby coup and nothing makes sense without it. Prig would not have withdrawn from his mad dash to Moscow unless;

A) He had achieved his objectives. Twitter speculation ranges from Putin's monetary guarantees to securing nuclear missiles (apparently there a depot in the Voronezh Oblast, where one of the Russian aircraft crashed).

B) His family (or something as important) was threatened

C) He received assurances from a political backer and withdrew before taking Moscow and all the problems that entailed.

Either way, you don't back down from active treason against a dictator and expect to live.

WhisperingAutistic · 26/06/2023 06:40

Seems like they did threaten his family
www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/25/yevgeny-prigozhin-moscow-advance-putin-threat-wagner-family/

MagicFox · 26/06/2023 06:45

Velina Tchakarova:

"My short analysis of the recent events concerning Russia's political dynamics, particularly focusing on the intricate relationships between President Putin, the Ministry of Defence (MoD), and Yevgeny Prigozhin, head of the private military company Wagner PMC.

As I asserted right from the beginning of the events, the actions of Prigozhin do not appear to constitute an outright coup against Putin. Rather, his challenge seems to be an effort to resist a perceived threat from the MoD, set to act against the Wagner PMC by the 1st of July. Prigozhin's offensive appears to have been predicated on the assumption that Putin would support him, certainly a miscalculation of the complex power interplays within the Kremlin.
While Prigozhin's criticisms of the MoD indeed have dovetailed with Putin's interests, helping to offset a powerful competitor in the ongoing power contest between St Petersburg and Moscow, taking such a stance publicly against the MoD, and by extension against key Russian defence figures, has seemingly pushed him into a precarious position.
The information revealed by the Pentagon Leaks, suggesting that MoD's General Gerasimov and Minister Shoigu plotted to end the war against Ukraine during Putin's chemotherapy treatment, only further compounds this complex web of loyalties and power struggles.

Despite these events, Prigozhin's saving grace may indeed be Putin's calculus. Prigozhin has proven a useful domestic instrument, allowing Putin to deflect blame for military failures onto the MoD. Furthermore, the Wagner network of approximately 20,000-25,000 troops operating in Africa's challenging terrains gives Russia a strategic advantage in geopolitical and geoeconomic pursuits on the resource-rich continent.
In the absence of a suitable alternative, Prigozhin's position seems secure, provided his usefulness to Putin remains intact. This staged rebellion has also served Putin's interests by flushing out potential traitors within his inner circles and examining the reaction of the Moscow faction.
The unification of the two main competing factions in opposition to a common adversary, once Prigozhin advanced dangerously close to Moscow, is particularly noteworthy. Future significant resignations within the General Staff and the MoD, albeit unlikely, would mark a considerable victory for Putin. If Prigozhin survives this upheaval, it will be chiefly due to his value in relation to Russia's growing interests in Africa.

In conclusion, regardless of the public perception of these events, it seems that Putin stands to gain, underpinning his capacity to manipulate complex power dynamics in his favour. The evolving situation warrants continuous monitoring for a deeper understanding of the ongoing power struggles within the Russian political sphere."

OP posts:
MagicFox · 26/06/2023 06:49

Interesting thread on the Chinese reaction: twitter.com/wentisung/status/1672880941075931138?s=46&t=ZRiOqYBPJdwGCarjKNzCeQ

And I enjoyed Julia Davis's state tv overview re Prighozin's rebellion: twitter.com/juliadavisnews/status/1673179167293046790?s=46&t=ZRiOqYBPJdwGCarjKNzCeQ

OP posts:
SunshinyDay1 · 26/06/2023 07:06

Thought so.

Igotjelly · 26/06/2023 07:15

Mark Galeotti’s latest episode of the ‘In Moscow’s Shadow’ podcast gives a very good bit of analysis on all the latest goings on. Well worth a listen.

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2023 07:20

Oh goodie. So a lot of windows look unstable in Russia now?

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2023 07:37

Shoigu seems to have escaped the clutches of evil windows.

Interesting tweet to reflect on:
Analysts tell Al Arabiya English Yevgeny #Prigozhin's actions in #Belarus may be limited by #Lukashenko's directives. However, if #Russia's #Putin crosses Lukashenko, Prigozhin might get more freedom. This could give Lukashenko leverage over Putin.

Igotjelly · 26/06/2023 07:42

Yes Shoigu seems to be in Ukraine visiting the troops.

WhisperingAutistic · 26/06/2023 08:39

Oh dear 😳

Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
PerkingFaintly · 26/06/2023 09:43

Ah yes, we've commented before on the fact Lukashenko likes a bit of leverage. To the point that he, like Prigozhin, is something of a kingmaker for Putin.

Efacsen · 26/06/2023 10:07

WhisperingAutistic · 26/06/2023 08:39

Oh dear 😳

Same now being reported by RIA Novosti state owned news agency

WhisperingAutistic · 26/06/2023 10:30

They have possibly already disposed of Prigozhin then?

Ukraine Invasion: Part 42