Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

[mumoftwobarnyboys]

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

The utter moral illiteracy of this.

The baby was 32 - 34 weeks! Could have been viable.
How can that possibly be the same as having a termination with a foetus?
She had so many options before it got to this point

This is a horrific case and I struggle with my feelings on it. To be honest, I don't really understand the argument that terminations should be available as late as necessary if that means being able to abort a baby that could survive outside the womb with relatively little support (of course I'm not including late terminations for medical reasons.) I understand the argument that the bodily autonomy of the woman is paramount but at that stage, birth has to happen. I could see an argument in saying that a woman should be able to decide not to be pregnant any more at any stage- but I'm not sure why it necessarily follows that the woman also has the right to decide whether the baby is born alive or dead.

As to when an unborn baby acquires a sort of distinct personhood that gives them the right to life, I'm not sure we really have the answer to that yet. I'm perfectly comfortable that a foetus does not have whatever element it is that gives them their own rights before the current legal cut-off point for terminations. But until science can prove what is currently unknown- at what point an unborn baby becomes sentient, for example- I'm not sure why anyone would argue that it has to be at the point of birth.

It’s true though, in some ways and that is why it is so confusing to me (although I’m not the OP of the comment). until the baby is born, it is part of her body. Pregnant women are allowed to smoke and drink alcohol to the extent that it has a severe effect on their unborn children. Some pregnant women take heroin. Babies are born being weaned off drugs with no legal consequences, however if the mother forcibly made the baby drink or inhale cigarette smoke or injected them with heroin after birth it would be a hideous crime. The difference in the first instance is that before the baby is born it is part of her body.
Where should the law draw the line, and why is the line drawn at birth for some instances and 24 weeks for abortion?

Murderer.

It seems to me that she lied to the BPAS
She took drugs to kill a viable child
The lied to those who initially cared for her
She lied about her guilt.to the authorities.

I don't see the alternative to prison.

At 32 to 34 weeks She had the option of adoption. Allowing the baby to live.and be loved.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. For any reason. This woman shouldn’t be going to prison because the law shouldn’t put restrictions on abortions. Any restrictions are a slippery slope. How can women who have had a still birth/miscarriage feel safe for a start? They could find themselves being investigated on the say so of HCPs, and I’ve had the displeasure of dealing with some completely misogynistic anti abortion medical professionals, including gynaecologists! I can’t believe the HCPs reported it to be honest, would it really have been so hard to not go digging? This isn’t a good outcome least for all for her poor children deprived of their mother. They may never recover from that separation.

So causing the death of a 34 week old foetus is equivalent to taking your own life? Jesus. Deeply insulting and offensive to people driven to suicide and those bereaved by suicide.

I think she deserves the sentence.

The baby was far to late to be doing what she did. She effective took its life.

As is clear from the sentencing remarks the defendant made admissions to those caring for her about what she had done. These were entirely exceptional circumstances and there are no grounds for suggesting women suffering still births have anything else to fear. Silly scaremongering.

Sad case, baby was given a name. if she'd pled guilty at earliest chance she could have been spared a prison sentence. I'm torn. The law is the law but my word she must have been struggling to do that. Lockdown has a lot to answer for.

I am just making the point that some countries criminalize suicide, again removing bodily autonomy.
Where in my post did i say it was equivalent.

They may never recover from that separation.

Seriously? I think more likely that they may never recover from the fact that their mother killed their sibling at 32 weeks old, completely capable to live outside her womb, once they are old enough to understand.

Couldn't disagree more @grapehyacinthisactuallyblue - they'll miss their mum more than they'll ever miss a non-existent baby.

Exactly. I know of 2 23 weekers who are perfectly healthy at age 2 and 3. Their story isn't that uncommon anymore either, loads of micro prems doing fine

You seem to be suggesting that violence against oneself is comparable to destruction of a near term foetus. That is grossly offensive. I’m minded to report the post, actually.

Women in this country have termination choices from very early on in pregnancy right up to 22-24 weeks. They can also opt to terminate for serious medical reasons after this point. This is more than enough time to process the pregnancy, and think about how they wish to proceed.

I imagine it is rare to discover you are pregnant after the final termination point and also want to abort. But in any event women absolutely should not be allowed to terminate after 24, 25, 30+ weeks just because they've changed their mind or not considered pregnancy as a possibility.

Imagine the trauma that medical staff would have to deal with if expected to deliver fully formed and healthy foetuses and would be viable babies that have been aborted for no good reason?

Everyone knows that sex = possible pregnancy. We all need to take responsibility for our own bodies and be aware that pregnancy is a possibility after sex and to deal with this asap if there is any chance. There is absolutely no need to be trying for a termination at such a late stage.

This is not about pro choice. We have choices.

But in any event women absolutely should not be allowed to terminate after 24, 25, 30+ weeks just because they've changed their mind or not considered pregnancy as a possibility.

But again, there are babies born at 22-23 weeks without any complications long term. Those babies not worth the same rights as a 32-34 weeker then?

As early as possible, as late as necessary. Woman's choice

Saw a little coverage of this. Backdrop of a pharmacy with abortion pills with commentary about a prison sentence. Yes, the complexities of the case are being discussed here but there I think there was an unfortunate juxtaposition in this news case. A rare and unpalatable case possibly allowing abortion medication to be linked to criminality?

I think it's impossible to present this case in the media without controversy but I think the media have to give thought about how they are presenting abortion medication per se as many women use the medication perfectly legitimately.

She had so many choices.
She chose to have unprotected sex with two different men. She chose not to take the morning after pill. She chose not to have a legal abortion for the first 24 weeks of her pregnancy. She chose to murder her defenceless and innocent baby and tried to lie and cover up her crime. She had so many choices...

A line has been crossed and now women will be arrested for all sorts of thing. Shall we arrest the woman who refuses to come to hospital against advice because she wants a home birth and the baby dies?What about someone who refuses an emergency section? I know of a case of that happening in the US. The woman was arrested. Its a slippery slope now.

Exactly.

The US is a wholly different jurisdiction with different laws. There is no basis for this idiotic scaremongering. No one is helped by it.

Its not idiotic scaremongering. A man has put a woman in orison for doing something to her own body. The end.