Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

[mumoftwobarnyboys]

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

As PP have said - she knew what she was doing and did it irregardless. There's reasons there's time limits on that sort of medication, there's reasons there's time limits on abortions.

Imo - as harsh as it sounds, if you break the law you risk a custodial sentence. I'm unsure what other steps could have been taken as from what I have seen, she admitted it first then started to deny it later on. Had she been fully upfront and not lied about everything she did then perhaps things would have been different and it wouldn't have been a prison sentence - but continuing the lies maybe didn't help her case.

So much happened during covid but I think using covid as any sort of excuse for this exact incident is wrong, it's not the main factor at play here at all.

At that stage, it's not abortion, it's infanticide

What is prison for? To deter other people from committing the same crime? To punish the perpetrator?

I cannot see how any good can be served by taking this woman away from her 4 children for a year and incarcerating her.

It just feels like a perfect storm to me and if she'd been able to access medical care earlier and we hadn't been in lockdown, the whole sorry saga could have been avoided.

All babies deserve to be born wanted.

I disagree - I think restrictions due to covid absolutely played a role. If this lady had been able to access better support I think she might well have made better decision. If you read the sentencing remarks it’s very clear this was a person in absolute chaos.

This should be an issue of mental and physical health for the woman concerned, and her family, not a public criminal case. It doesn't serve any purpose to prosecute or imprison her. It won't act as a deterrent to anyone who is desperate enough to be considering this in future, it will just make them even more unwilling to engage with healthcare services.

Abortion in general should not be in the criminal framework in this day and age.

it seems she was pregnant in Dec 2019 lockdown did not start until late March 2020 so she was already past 10 weeks , a couple of weeks before lockdown started.
definitely not pro-choice past 24 weeks unless the unborn child has a condition incompatible with life or is severely disabled. if i'm honest I am also not pro choice for sex selective abortion either

@Redebs it's not infanticide. That would be the killing of an already born infant child and isn't a specific UK crime. This is either an illegal abortion or the very unusual crime of child destruction.

This would appear to be an argument for ability to end pregnancies at any stage without incurring any sanction under the criminal law. Do you think there is public support for this? I don’t.
we have a stable consensus on abortion in this country. Let’s not fuck that up with silly overreach.

@AgathaSpencerGregson

I've read the sentencing remarks -

She knew she was 3 months pregnant on the 1st of February 2020. This was over a month before the UK lockdown began.

At the end of February she searched being 23 weeks pregnant. Again before lockdown.

Obtaining and taking ten week limited abortion pills in the May, during lockdown, indicates to me she utilised the remote service available during lockdown and lied with full knowledge she wasn't under 10 weeks pregnant.

There was a period way before lockdown - from December 2019 she was able to seek support.

Good. This is exactly what is needed to show this isn’t acceptable.

In an ideal world a maternal request abortion should not be criminal. I am not an idiot and recognise that this is a minority view in the UK. But I reserve my right to hold it and to speak about it.

A good first step would be to remove the need for two doctors to sign off for the current set up with the current time limits.

You are so right. 👏 finally someone with sense

👏

I think there is public support for abortion before 12-15 weeks for any reason , and after 12-15 weeks upto results of anomaly scan ( around 20-24 ) weeks involving doctors signing it off, after 24 weeks should be very very rare ( as it already is)
I think public opinion is very much against the termination of a pregnancy of a healthy child (that would almost certainly would survive if born at that point) after 30 weeks for sure probably after 24-26 weeks

Did she seek a termination via the doctor? Before ordering the pills I mean.

Having read through the judges comments (I think it's very important to read those and ignore all the other conjecture and opinions) I still think the sentence is incredibly harsh.

I feel for her other children. What a horrible situation.

I realise serious MH issues were discredited (as mentioned in judges comments) but I can't imagine you'd be in your right mind to do what she did.

the chaotic emotional and psychological state of the defendant is very clear from the judges remarks and he quite properly made allowances for that. Lockdown denied her all chance of access to support that might have helped her with that. It seems utterly bonkers to deny its role in this case.

You’re entitled to your view but I’d hate to see it taken up and argued widely. Nothing more likely to jeopardise the stable consensus we have.

I'm slightly confused as to which body was never recovered? I see one child up for adoption, has she late miscarried/aborted previously?
It does read she has a chaotic unstable life, I hope she gets the support she clearly needs, these are not decisions made rationally.

Also, using lockdown as an excuse is that; an excuse, she thought she was 23 weeks in February, she knew well in advance.

She needs help and support, not locking up.

Exactly my thoughts.

Incredibly sad but she was 32-34 weeks pregnant when she took the pills, she knew how pregnant she was, she knew the pills could only be taken in early pregnancy.
That poor baby.

That'll be me then, because I don't think this is acceptable. I do have sympathy after reading the judges mitigating factors though.

She was in a relationship with two men, plus her ex partner (according to her local paper reporting) she had two children at the time, had a precious abortion before 24 weeks, a child in care and is now a mother of three

She looked up how to abort over a period of time, lord to professionals, called an ambulance and lied again, then further called an ambulance and lied to staff.

An autopsy revealed the truth, she continued to lie and admitted it when her defence team negotiated the offence.

Poor baby Lily, if she had mental health concerns I’m sure her defence would have raised it. I’m not sure I can sympathise.