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Original poster

Why does the UK have 16-17 year olds on adult wards?

349 replies

Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 21:50

Just that. I've always been confused by it. As far as I know, most countries in Europe, or even the world, keep patients in pediatrics until they turn 18 or even 21. Why does the UK move them to adult wards so early? Isn't this a safeguarding risk?

OP posts:
Wallywobbles · 18/05/2023 07:02

I'm in France and it's up to 18 here. That feels uncomfortable too to be honest.

Daisypain · 18/05/2023 07:12

Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 22:31

Out of interest, why would the adult team not want the under 18s?

Show quote history

Because in drug licensing terms they may still be classed as paediatric and treatment algorithms work on over 18 for some conditions

Daisypain · 18/05/2023 07:15

Babdoc · 18/05/2023 06:04

OP, you seem to be infantilising 16 year olds. In Scotland, when I was at medical school, many of the first year students were 16 years old and were dissecting corpses in their first week learning anatomy as medical students. If they had fallen ill, it would have been ridiculous to admit them to a children’s ward, and they would have been rightly furious! 16 year olds can vote, work and marry in Scotland. They are not children.

My child has been an inpatient many times at 16 and whilst yes they feel like an adult in some ways, when ill and vulnerable they absolutely wanted me there with them overnight and would have hated to be on an adult ward with mixed sex bays.

On a paeds ward the staff were used to dealing with teenagers as well as babies and they never infantilised him. But he did feel safe and appropriately supported.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General health
powerrangers · 18/05/2023 07:24

Babdoc · 18/05/2023 06:04

OP, you seem to be infantilising 16 year olds. In Scotland, when I was at medical school, many of the first year students were 16 years old and were dissecting corpses in their first week learning anatomy as medical students. If they had fallen ill, it would have been ridiculous to admit them to a children’s ward, and they would have been rightly furious! 16 year olds can vote, work and marry in Scotland. They are not children.

16 year olds at medical school? How old are you? Surely 16 year olds are sitting GCSEs/whatever you sit in Scotland. They haven't even sat a-levels/highers. How would a 16 year old be at uni. Most medical schools have a minimum age of 18. I know of someone who is about 26 now. He had to defer a year as he was not quite 18 at the start of the course

isthismylifenow · 18/05/2023 07:30

I am not in the UK and anyone over the age of 16 goes into the adult ward.

I know this as my ds had surgery at age 15.5 and was in the paed ward, although he had his own room, I assume so not with the babies/toddlers etc.

He had to go in again just after he turned 16, went into the general men's ward.

My dd at age 16.5 also went into the ladies ward, although they did put her into a two bed ward.

DoughnutDreams · 18/05/2023 07:42

@powerrangers in Scotland it is very very common to have 17yr old medical students in first year. All of the Freshers and mediocre events have either a separate venue, or stipulations that <18's are not served alcohol.

DoughnutDreams · 18/05/2023 07:42

*MedSoc events

Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 18/05/2023 08:03

Sugarfree23 · 18/05/2023 00:45

My limited experience of the local Children's ward are that they are mixed sex, they try to sort the bays by age, so you don't have baby's next to 10yos.

Is it really appropriate for teens to be in the same bay as the opposite sex?

Adult wards should at least have separate male/ female bays.

Most adult wards are now fully mixed and don't have bays separated by sex.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 18/05/2023 08:13

Babdoc · 18/05/2023 06:04

OP, you seem to be infantilising 16 year olds. In Scotland, when I was at medical school, many of the first year students were 16 years old and were dissecting corpses in their first week learning anatomy as medical students. If they had fallen ill, it would have been ridiculous to admit them to a children’s ward, and they would have been rightly furious! 16 year olds can vote, work and marry in Scotland. They are not children.

I get where you're coming from, but I promise you I really don't. I think kids are capable of far more than we give them credit for. However I when you're 16/17, extremely ill to the point you're an inpatient, a mixed adult ward is one of the least appropriate places for you. I appreciate some people feel differently so there should be a choice, but it does seem that it's a postcode lottery how 16/17 year old admissions get handled.
It irks me that we don't trust them to make the right choice when it comes to voting, alcohol, smoking, gambling etc etc, but yes, they can have sex with anyone they want and at their most vulnerable can be left on a mixed ward. I get that the sentence that's already been referred to has been sent for appeal, but the sentencing was done and it was done because someone believed the 25 year olds aren't fully capable of making decisions. I just can't understand the lack of clarity and fluency in this thinking. They're either an adult or not. With all respects of the law, 16/17 year olds are kids, it as soon as they're extremely ill, off you go with the adults.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 18/05/2023 08:14

Daisypain · 18/05/2023 07:12

Because in drug licensing terms they may still be classed as paediatric and treatment algorithms work on over 18 for some conditions

Show quote history

That's interesting. I thought this was the case too as the pediatrician had to prescribe me meds when I was on an adult ward at 17.

OP posts:
Anoushkaka · 18/05/2023 08:17

shivawn · 17/05/2023 21:57

Oh wow, I'm really surprised by this. I work in a hospital in Ireland and we would never put 16 or 17 year olds on an adult ward.

Our Lady's Children's Hospital in Crumlin don't see children when she reach the age of 16, they need to go to an "adult" hospital..

MerlinBirds · 18/05/2023 08:22

16/17 year olds are in a weird limbo as some may be more adult than others.

There's an arbitrary line of 18 which doesn't always work.

Having experience last year of an almost 18 year old convicted violent offender who was in hospital after being stabbed in a gang-related incident who was abusive to staff and had his stoned also abusive mates coming onto the ward to visit - I didn't support his community workers who wanted him to be moved to a children's ward.

I saw their point but the safety of more vulnerable children had to be taken into consideration and prioritised.

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 18/05/2023 08:36

@MerlinBirds but that kid would go to a young offenders institution not adult jail.

I'm not saying he should have been on the paeds ward but it is weird that if a late teen is capable of killing/abusing someone they aren't an adult but if a scared, unwell, vulnerable in a medical setting they are.

As a parent of a 16 year old I still get fined if they don't attend school, social services would be involved if I raised my hand to them, they can't even stay alone in a Premier Inn.

MerlinBirds · 18/05/2023 08:47

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 18/05/2023 08:36

@MerlinBirds but that kid would go to a young offenders institution not adult jail.

I'm not saying he should have been on the paeds ward but it is weird that if a late teen is capable of killing/abusing someone they aren't an adult but if a scared, unwell, vulnerable in a medical setting they are.

As a parent of a 16 year old I still get fined if they don't attend school, social services would be involved if I raised my hand to them, they can't even stay alone in a Premier Inn.

Young offenders institutions house 15-17 (or 18-21 year olds if in the higher group) , no younger than that. A paeds ward will have much younger children.

They're not comparable situations.

And a 16/17 year looked after by the local authority child who may be a convicted offender can and will be housed in a Premier Inn or similar if an alternative appropriate placement can't be found.

HeidiUpTheMountain · 18/05/2023 08:56

There are some really interesting things emerging here, and it speaks to societal change and our view of teenagers changing significantly over the past 30-40 years, since my teen years.

There is a clear view that sick people will scare 16-18 year olds.

That old people are frightening to 16 - 18 year olds.

That an 18 year old will be caused ‘psychological damage’ by being on a ward with an ill, elderly person.

What has happened to us that teens no longer have contact with older people or those who are ill? How can it be acceptable that they lack resilience to this degree? It’s very sad that children aren’t seeing aging and illness as normal parts of life. They are normal!

At 16, I spent lots of time with my elderly grandparents. I helped care for my grandfather after a major stroke until he died when I was 17. I provided care to my grandma, who had dementia, along with lots of other members of the family, from 17 to 19, including putting her to bed if I was on the evening shift. Because I loved them both. And I managed it alongside school, sixth form and university.

My friends who went into nursing started at 16. During sixth form, two friends worked weekend shifts in a local care home. One had moved out of home and was living with her 18 year old sister.

Why are teens now so much less capable and robust? Aren’t you raising your children to be emotionally intelligent and to be ready to live in an adult world? This does explain a lot of what I see in entry level jobs, I suppose.

RoseFl0wers · 18/05/2023 08:59

I was 16yo 10 years ago and was put on an adult ward for a week.

So1invictus · 18/05/2023 09:02

Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 22:05

It would be interesting if someone actually knew a reason for this and if any other countries also do this. I genuinely can't find one. Everywhere else seems to be pediatrics until 18. The USA seems to keep you in pediatrics until 21.

Italy.
Paediatrics until 14.

I think a) it would be much more inappropriate for a 16-17 year old to be on a ward with small children, for many reasons and for everyone's sake b) your not even thinly veiled ageist comments are repulsive.

So1invictus · 18/05/2023 09:03

HeidiUpTheMountain · 18/05/2023 08:56

There are some really interesting things emerging here, and it speaks to societal change and our view of teenagers changing significantly over the past 30-40 years, since my teen years.

There is a clear view that sick people will scare 16-18 year olds.

That old people are frightening to 16 - 18 year olds.

That an 18 year old will be caused ‘psychological damage’ by being on a ward with an ill, elderly person.

What has happened to us that teens no longer have contact with older people or those who are ill? How can it be acceptable that they lack resilience to this degree? It’s very sad that children aren’t seeing aging and illness as normal parts of life. They are normal!

At 16, I spent lots of time with my elderly grandparents. I helped care for my grandfather after a major stroke until he died when I was 17. I provided care to my grandma, who had dementia, along with lots of other members of the family, from 17 to 19, including putting her to bed if I was on the evening shift. Because I loved them both. And I managed it alongside school, sixth form and university.

My friends who went into nursing started at 16. During sixth form, two friends worked weekend shifts in a local care home. One had moved out of home and was living with her 18 year old sister.

Why are teens now so much less capable and robust? Aren’t you raising your children to be emotionally intelligent and to be ready to live in an adult world? This does explain a lot of what I see in entry level jobs, I suppose.

Mumsnet is a bit skewed towards the elderly tbh. As can be seen in the disgusting comments by this OP.

So1invictus · 18/05/2023 09:11

9 posts from the OP referencing NOT the argument she claims to be advocating (at what age should young people be admitted to adult hospital wards instead of paediatric hospital wards) but how she, her sister and (seemingly) everyone she's ever known has had the misfortune to find themselves next to "elderly dying women" "clogging up the wards" "old men" etc etc.

Agenda. Much?

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 18/05/2023 09:12

I'm not saying my son isn't robust, or scared of the elderly. He helps care for a relative. However when he was in pain, and sick and scared he wanted a parent to stay with him, why is that so hard to understand?

So many posts on here from women old enough to be mothers that want there husband with them for the whole time they are in hospital having a baby, I support that but I also support a person under 18 who needs a parent to stay in hospital.

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 18/05/2023 09:14

In fairness @So1invictus hospitals have become the holding bays of people that society does not know what to do with. Social care has failed.

Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 18/05/2023 09:19

HeidiUpTheMountain · 18/05/2023 08:56

There are some really interesting things emerging here, and it speaks to societal change and our view of teenagers changing significantly over the past 30-40 years, since my teen years.

There is a clear view that sick people will scare 16-18 year olds.

That old people are frightening to 16 - 18 year olds.

That an 18 year old will be caused ‘psychological damage’ by being on a ward with an ill, elderly person.

What has happened to us that teens no longer have contact with older people or those who are ill? How can it be acceptable that they lack resilience to this degree? It’s very sad that children aren’t seeing aging and illness as normal parts of life. They are normal!

At 16, I spent lots of time with my elderly grandparents. I helped care for my grandfather after a major stroke until he died when I was 17. I provided care to my grandma, who had dementia, along with lots of other members of the family, from 17 to 19, including putting her to bed if I was on the evening shift. Because I loved them both. And I managed it alongside school, sixth form and university.

My friends who went into nursing started at 16. During sixth form, two friends worked weekend shifts in a local care home. One had moved out of home and was living with her 18 year old sister.

Why are teens now so much less capable and robust? Aren’t you raising your children to be emotionally intelligent and to be ready to live in an adult world? This does explain a lot of what I see in entry level jobs, I suppose.

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's anything against young people seeing the sick and elderly. That's normal a part of life. Society has changed, we have taken away many rights from 16/17 year olds and as PP have mentioned, their parents would be fined if they're not in school. We have definitely infantilised them, and kids in general. There's very little likelihood of anything happening to a 6 year old if they're on a ward with a 16 year old with a parent, yet it's seen as shocking to some on here.
By all accounts, the law sees 16-17 year olds as children. In Scotland it's even longer now. If the brain is still developing at 25 and can't make rational decisions that stop you from raping someone, than I am just confused why this thinking seems to stop when it comes to them being admitted into hospital.
There's been some really insightful and helpful replies that have made me think about the complexities of the issues.
I also don't think old people are scary, but it is quite scary go be surrounded by elderly and frail men when you're a 16 year old that's sick enough to be an inpatient in hospital. Another poster mentioned her 14 year old being on a ward where 2 elderly people in beds next to her daughter's died. Surely you can agree that that can be traumatising.
It is also the fact it's not very consistent in terms of approach. Many people aren't allowed to stay the night with their 16 year olds who are on adults wards, they're at the mercy of the head nurse. In other places, that's a given.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 18/05/2023 09:24

So1invictus · 18/05/2023 09:11

9 posts from the OP referencing NOT the argument she claims to be advocating (at what age should young people be admitted to adult hospital wards instead of paediatric hospital wards) but how she, her sister and (seemingly) everyone she's ever known has had the misfortune to find themselves next to "elderly dying women" "clogging up the wards" "old men" etc etc.

Agenda. Much?

What agenda would I have? I have only mentioned mine and my sister's experience. There's been lots of people on this thread sharing their horrible experience as a teen on a mixed ward. The general agreement has been that mixed wards are the big problem, but i don't know how that can be solved especially now with the trans movement.
I have nothing bad to say about the elderly. I think they, like the 16-17 year olds have been forgotten by society and the way they're left in hospital bays is criminal. It is not a hidden fact that failures in social care have meant beds are clogged up in adult wards by people who should be discharged but have no where to go. It is the reality that of you were to be admitted to a general ward, you'd most likely be on a bay with mostly elderly people. That's not a secret nor is saying that, a disgusting thing. What's disgusting is how those elderly are treated and how nurses are having to pick up the pieces of a failed social care system.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 18/05/2023 09:25

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 18/05/2023 09:14

In fairness @So1invictus hospitals have become the holding bays of people that society does not know what to do with. Social care has failed.

Exactly. Clogged up bays full of elderly people that don't need to be in hospital but have no where to go, is hardly a secret.

OP posts:
Quisquam · 18/05/2023 09:32

So you think it’s more appropriate for a miscarrying 17 year old to be on a paediatric ward rather than being looked after by Gynae nurses?

As an adult miscarrying, I was put on a mixed ENT ward and I found it acutely embarrassing to have staff coming to wash all the blood off me, with an elderly man in the next bed. Likewise I found it extremely upsetting to be on a ward with women having abortions, some teenagers who didn’t bother with contraception. Older women also told me it was very upsetting for them to deal with a cancer diagnosis and see teenagers in for their 3rd abortion.

As for OP’s question, DD was on paediatric wards until she was 18. I always stayed with her, because care was non existent; but there were just as many fathers as mothers staying overnight. I didn’t feel DD would have been any safer, had she been on her own, than she would have been on a mixed adult ward; as there were just as many men potentially. The only good thing was I got a camp bed on paediatrics, whereas they asked me to stay with her on the adult wards; but I would have had to sleep in a chair.

DD was always on paediatric HDU, but I felt there should be separate wards for children, teenagers and adults. DD was kept awake by young children screaming all night.